Reversible Spells

[HatterMadness]

My book doesn't arrive in the mail for another few days and this question has been bugging me (not to mention i don't know if it's made clear in the book):

Does the reverse of a spell have to be memorized independently, or can a spell that is reversible be cast as it's reverse on the fly?

Example: If i memorized the Heal spell. Can i cast it as Harm on the fly? Or is it ONLY Heal.

Personally, i think it should be reversible on the fly, seeing how they are marked as reversible instead of being completely separate spells. Otherwise it would be like telling someone that they have to memorize the different versions of a multi-purpose spell, like Fire Seeds.

[Taranthyll]

In my game I allow players to cast reversible spells on the fly with a successful SIEGE check.

[Traveller]

PHB, p47 wrote:
A character can prepare the same spell more than once each day. Each preparation counts as one spell toward the character's daily limit for each spell level. If a spell has multiple versions, the character must choose which version to use when the character prepares it, unless the spell description specifies that the choice is made upon casting.

By the RAW, casters have to memorize reversed versions of spells. But if you want to house rule things so casters can cast reversed spells on the fly, go right ahead.
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[Lord Dynel]

Traveller wrote:
By the RAW, casters have to memorize reversed versions of spells. But if you want to house rule things so casters can cast reversed spells on the fly, go right ahead.

Mr. Traveller has pretty much said it.

But yeah, there's nothing to say you can't house-rule it as such...unless you're not the CK.
BTW, welcome to the Crusade, HatterMadness!
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[serleran]

Some Castle Keepers may also rule that a reversed spell is a separate spell and must be learned (in the case of "arcane casters") as such, so, for example, knowing haste does not mean you know slow. This is another severe advantage of the cleric class, especially a neutrally-aligned one who is not "forbidden" in casting opposition spells. Many people allow the casting of clerical reversals without consideration of alignment... so, ask your Castle Keeper if that is true in your game as well.
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Serl's Corner

[Julian Grimm]

The way I always handled it was that the reverse of a spell was usually a known variation of the given spell that is learned along with it. So the spell could be cast reversed if needed. However I don't require prior memorization and go by a spells per day system rather than traditional vancian system.
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[Treebore]

Taranthyll wrote:
In my game I allow players to cast reversible spells on the fly with a successful SIEGE check.

Yep. CL=level of spell.
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[serleran]

Spells with variable casting options, such as wall of ice are memorized as they are -- when cast, any of the particular applications can be utilized, but only one such variation per casting. The reversing of a spell is not a variation... it is a different spell, so, by the rules, no -- you cannot have heal prepared and then turn it into harm at a whim.
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[HatterMadness]

serleran wrote:
Spells with variable casting options, such as wall of ice are memorized as they are -- when cast, any of the particular applications can be utilized, but only one such variation per casting. The reversing of a spell is not a variation... it is a different spell, so, by the rules, no -- you cannot have heal prepared and then turn it into harm at a whim.

I believe that the reverse of a spell IS a variation of the said spell. I figure the slow spell isn't much different then the haste spell. Just a small change in it's implementation... a negative sign instead of a positive one in your magical math
I very much like Taranthyll's suggestion of a SEIGE check to reverse on the fly. Though it seems that Traveller's made it clear what i would have found if i had my book.

Thanks Lord Dynel! And alas, i am not the CK... yet. But he may be open to nudging his house rule.

[Lord Dynel]

HatterMadness wrote:
I believe that the reverse of a spell IS a variation of the said spell. I figure the slow spell isn't much different then the haste spell. Just a small change in it's implementation... a negative sign instead of a positive one in your magical math
I very much like Taranthyll's suggestion of a SEIGE check to reverse on the fly. Though it seems that Traveller's made it clear what i would have found if i had my book.

Thanks Lord Dynel! And alas, i am not the CK... yet. But he may be open to nudging his house rule.

You're quite welcome, sir! Yeah, the SIEGE check for the reversal is a good one to house rule. I'd probably be a bit more lenient, but that's because I'd a coddling GM (as someone on the WotC boards once called me).
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[serleran]

Quote:
I believe that the reverse of a spell IS a variation of the said spell.

Of which spell? Is haste a variation of slow, or is slow a variation of haste? There is no spell called "modify speed" which can do either, in which case you would be right... instead, each is a specific effect, that happen to be contrary to each other, hence "reversible."
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Serl's Corner

[HatterMadness]

serleran wrote:
Of which spell? Is haste a variation of slow, or is slow a variation of haste? There is no spell called "modify speed" which can do either, in which case you would be right... instead, each is a specific effect, that happen to be contrary to each other, hence "reversible."

Now this is just my personal thought on the subject.

But i believe that all spells are both their main form and their reverse. In this case; Haste is just a variation of Slow and Slow is a variation of Haste. The only real book "evidence" i have is that the reverses are placed at the end of a spells description, as to mention that a spell can be twisted into this other form.

Maybe it's more of a philosophy then a fact, but i figure that Harm and Heal are just a different application of the same thing.

[gideon_thorne]

I think all spells ought to be reversible. Even if its only so a mage can 'counterspell' another mage.
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Peter Bradley

[Julian Grimm]

HatterMadness wrote:
Now this is just my personal thought on the subject.

But i believe that all spells are both their main form and their reverse. In this case; Haste is just a variation of Slow and Slow is a variation of Haste. The only real book "evidence" i have is that the reverses are placed at the end of a spells description, as to mention that a spell can be twisted into this other form.

Maybe it's more of a philosophy then a fact, but i figure that Harm and Heal are just a different application of the same thing.

I'm pretty much in agreement. I always saw the reverse of a spell as a small given variation that may have not been found in the original research. Thus by a minor swish to the left than the right Heal becomes Harm.

At least that is how I have done it in the past with AD&D and how I am doing it with C&C.
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[Julian Grimm]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I think all spells ought to be reversible. Even if its only so a mage can 'counterspell' another mage.

Something I have came to as well. All spells can possibly be reversed or toyed with. Fireball can be changed to any other element by that take and so on. The fun begins when the unintended results show up. Thus making being a mage more interesting and dangerous.
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[serleran]

What the hell would be the reverse of dispel magic? Make magic?
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Serl's Corner

[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
What the hell would be the reverse of dispel magic? Make magic?

It would stop dispel magic from working. Wouldn't that be a nasty shock?
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Peter Bradley

[serleran]

Oh, so permanency? Much different spell level, though.

Though, some other games had things like extension which could be a sort of anti-dispel.
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[Julian Grimm]

gideon_thorne wrote:
It would stop dispel magic from working. Wouldn't that be a nasty shock?

Or you could have some bad affects from attempting it's reverse. Say you just drained your staff of power and released the energy in a focused blast that burnt you to ashes or hyped up a staff of the magi to the point it exploded. Maybe you become a target for all magical effects.
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[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
Oh, so permanency? Much different spell level, though.

Though, some other games had things like extension which could be a sort of anti-dispel.

No. Not permanency, just blocking the dispel magic effect.
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Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

Julian Grimm wrote:
Or you could have some bad affects from attempting it's reverse. Say you just drained your staff of power and released the energy in a focused blast that burnt you to ashes or hyped up a staff of the magi to the point it exploded. Maybe you become a target for all magical effects.

*smiles* Sure. I'm just pointing out that one could pretty much double one's spellbook by finding creative ways to reverse spells. Or even changing the descriptive effect.

What if Fireball became Water Wrack for instance? Instead of a ball of fire, one could just rip all the moisture out of a given target area?

Point is, everyone, don't let yourself become too bound by descriptions.
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

Instead of Magic Jar, go with Mundane Jar and score yourself some free pickles!

[serleran]

The reverse of fireball would not be water... it would be to remove energy. A sort of vacuum, in essence.
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Serl's Corner

[HatterMadness]

Haha, i don't know about ALL spells having a reverse. But tweaking spells on the fly sound like an exciting idea... though possibly very dangerous. Tastes a bit like wild magic. And we all know how that goes
It's just that some spells sound like that would have a reverse just by nature. Most of the best already have reverses built into the rules. But others like Fly, why shouldn't using a Plus instead of a minus sign in your magical equation cause the spell to force a creature to be earthbound for the duration

[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
The reverse of fireball would not be water... it would be to remove energy. A sort of vacuum, in essence.

See the part where I said 'change the descriptive effect'
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Peter Bradley

[Julian Grimm]

Of course there are exceptions but I think what Pete and I are saying is that finding reverses or creative tweaks makes the (IMO) somewhat limited C&C spell lists double and even triple in size. It was either Tim Kask or Frank Mentzer of DF that had a good thought exercise by finding reverses to all spells in the RC.
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[serleran]

Quote:
But tweaking spells on the fly sound like an exciting idea...

Actually being worked on for a project of mine, called Lexicon of the Weird which will cover a wide variety of magical things.
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Serl's Corner

[gideon_thorne]

Julian Grimm wrote:
Of course there are exceptions but I think what Pete and I are saying is that finding reverses or creative tweaks makes the (IMO) somewhat limited C&C spell lists double and even triple in size. It was either Tim Kask or Frank Mentzer of DF that had a good thought exercise by finding reverses to all spells in the RC.

Yup. Best way to come up with new spells quickly, in my estimation. Take a current spell and change its description and/or reverse it.
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

Yeah, you can easily pad another classes spell list by changing the flavor text and spell level too. I had some troll shamans in one of my games that had a spell that summoned a swarm of jade colored hornets around their hand and let them fling it at an opponent.

After the campaign notes became "declassified" one of my players was looking through them and said, "Hey! This is just Melf's Acid Arrow with the description changed!"

Yes it was, damn near cut and pasted.

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, you can easily pad another classes spell list by changing the flavor text and spell level too. I had some troll shamans in one of my games that had a spell that summoned a swarm of jade colored hornets around their hand and let them fling it at an opponent.

After the campaign notes became "declassified" one of my players was looking through them and said, "Hey! This is just Melf's Acid Arrow with the description changed!"

Yes it was, damn near cut and pasted.

Exactly. When your the game master doing this, the players have no idea that its not an entirely new spell. Its all good theatre.
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Peter Bradley