C&C Economy

HatterMadness · Post by **HatterMadness** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:46 pm

I'm a math minded person, so i couldn't help but wonder what approximate pay scales were for commoners, tradesmen, and soldiers.

I know D&D 3.5 had a table in the equipment section detailing the cost of hiring a tradesman of a specific sort. But does C&C have one?

This is mostly important so that players can not only hire services, but bribe their way through troubles.

PCs may count their gold in the hundreds, but you'll get way to much attention if you think 50 gold would be a good standard bribe for a soldier if it turns out he is only making 5 silver a day.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:52 pm

I don't remember such guide lines being in a C&C resource, so I use the 1E DMG for such numbers. The 3E numbers would definitely work too.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:15 pm

It is left to the mind of the Castle Keeper. Maybe they want a 3 copper bribe to be more money than pisshand Bob sees in three lifetimes... or, maybe its a laughing riot.

Some things were intentionally left to the individual because they are not needed for "simple play."
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clavis123 · Post by **clavis123** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:49 pm

I use the basic scale of 1 silver piece a day for a common laborer, 1 gold a day for a middle-class tradesman like a clerk or sage. In addition to pay, however, an employer must also provide meals commensurate with the worker's social class, which will basically cost an amount equal to about half the worker's pay rate. For a laborer, that basically means 2 meals of black bread, some onions, cabbages and salt pork (none of which needs to be particularly fresh), while a sage would expect to be fed some spiced meat, white bread and a certain amount of vegetables.

I think of a gold piece as basically equal in value to $100 of modern currency, so a silver is equal to about $10. So most of the population gets by on about $10 a day, and gets fed if they are in someone's employ. Housewives and children must pray that the man of the house decides to buy food for them with his money, and doesn't use it to drink, gamble, or otherwise entertain himself. Often, just giving someone food of a type normally unobtainable to them would be a sufficient bribe.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:53 pm

Working out an equivalent scale... 5 gold pieces would keep an average peasant family of four fed and sheltered for a year at real world scales. (not comfortably mind you...but survival level)

figure 10 gold coins equals 1 pound of gold...16 troy ounces to a pound at approximately $900 per ounce, therefore 10 gold is equal to $14400 at current prices...which is about $1500 more than the average minimum wage worker (such as motel maid, gas station attendent, etc.) make in my neck of the woods per year.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:23 am

That's about what I use, too, clavis. Commoners making ~3gp a month is about what I think, and a "tip" from a PC of a gold piece is no laughing matter - that's a week's vacation! Not that a commoner would use it for such a thing, but I digress.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Sun May 24, 2009 7:09 am

Silver is the basic coin in my game. I use a modified version of AD&D 1st Edition coins/prices:

1 Copper Penny (most common coin)

5 Copper Pennies = 1 Bronze Penny or Ha'Penny (second most common coin)

2 Ha'Pennies = 1 Silver Penny or Farthing (basic coin of exchange)

4 Farthings = 1 Silver Piece or Shilling (standard coin of exchange)

10 Shillings = 1 Electrum Piece or Dinar (uncommon coin of exchange)

2 Dinari = 1 Steel Piece or Obolus (fairly uncommon coin of exchange)

2 Oboli = 1 Gold Penny or Solidi (very uncommon coin of exchange, no longer issued)

4 Solidus = 1 Gold Piece or Ducat (rare coin of exchange, no longer issued)

4 Ducats = 1 Platinum Piece or Bezant (ultra-rare coin of exchange, no longer issued)

So......

1 Bezant = 4 Ducats = 16 Solidus = 32 Oboli = 64 Dinari = 640 Shillings = 2560 Farthings = 5120 Ha'Pennies = 25600 Copper Pennies

Then there is Cut Silver (a sort of armlet/bracelet-style silver ingot). Its generally worth some 20 Silver Pieces total. Merchants usually carry this instead of lots of coins. People of means also tend to wear their wealth on their person (sewing gold/gems into their clothing/armour).

The average peasant makes about 10 Copper a day or roughly 7.5 Silver Peices per Month. The average middle-class skilled worker (what of it there is left) makes about 1 Shilling (Silver Piece) per day or 1.5 Steel Pieces per Month.
Edit: I knew something didn't look right so I had to go back and check my notes. I had forgotten the Bronze Penny (or Ha'Penny....pronouned Hay-penny).
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ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:57 pm

Are there any resources out there that do a good job of combining all the data from the 1e DMG, the 2e PHB and the various 3e books? I know that C&C basically uses 3e prices for consumer goods and services.

Also, I think I should chime in about the peasants. It all basically depends on the level of investment, the severity of taxes and the existence of a city with a healthy middle class.

If the peasants are typical impoverished mud-dwellers who basically give up their whole life savings to pay for adventurers to get rid of the orcs, then they would be subsistence farmers. Such peasants barely earn any coins at all. Their taxes are in the form of crops, animals, healthy men, pretty women and children being forcefully taken by the local knight.

((I am not an economic historian, do not take my word as absolute truth. In fact, don't take any economist's word as absolute truth.))

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun May 24, 2009 6:20 pm

No, when you get down to it you are largely correct. In the feudal days the vast majority of people, especially outside of towns and cities, probably never even saw coinage. They pay their taxes with food goods and whatever other goods they are able to produce, find, or dig up, not coins.

Everyone having coins is a convenience of the gaming environment, nothing based on reality.

I would love to shift to a silver based economy myself, but I am to lazy to do the work of writing up price lists, and I know I have PDF's and print Harnn World products that have such lists, I am just too frikkin lazy to go about compiling it all together.

So if Keolander or someone else has such a document on their computers my lazy butt would be more than happy to take advantage of their work.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun May 24, 2009 6:28 pm

ssfsx17 is essentially correct about coin vis a vis "Common" folk. Our stereotypical early medieval villager or townsman lives in a society where coin is actually rather uncommon. One of the reasons for medieval feudalism is to maintain knights in the field without having to pay them in coin or specie; because in post-Roman Western Europe such was rare. Most gold and silvers were used for royalty and church finery, which left less for use as a mode of exchange. Around the 11-12th century this began to change markedly, but if you're going for a Dark Age feel most coin values are at best approximate.

As a CK one must decide how realistic one wishes to be in modes of exchange. The more realistic one gets, the harder it is to keep up with the local territorial finniky laws and situations. This makes use in play harder, in which case a stock gold-silver-copper decimal system is easier to manage for both players and CK.

Hm. This might make a good Crusader article...!
Mike
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun May 24, 2009 8:06 pm

[quote="sieg"]ssfsx17 is essentially correct about coin vis a vis "Common" folk. Our stereotypical early medieval villager or townsman lives in a society where coin is actually rather uncommon. One of the reasons for medieval feudalism is to maintain knights in the field without having to pay them in coin or specie; because in post-Roman Western Europe such was rare. Most gold and silvers were used for royalty and church finery, which left less for use as a mode of exchange. Around the 11-12th century this began to change markedly, but if you're going for a Dark Age feel most coin values are at best approximate.

As a CK one must decide how realistic one wishes to be in modes of exchange. The more realistic one gets, the harder it is to keep up with the local territorial finniky laws and situations. This makes use in play harder, in which case a stock gold-silver-copper decimal system is easier to manage for both players and CK.

Hm. This might make a good Crusader article...!
Mike[/quote]

Or two, given the scope of the topic and issues involved.
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jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:07 am

Travellers House Rules change to a Copper based economy....
http://www.geocities.com/cnctraveller/cnc2.html

I could have sworn I'd seen someone do a silver-based one.

I'll see if I can dig is up....

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:10 am

Kind of on-topic, I like Magical Medeval Society: Western Europe. It doesn't give too great of detail on the kind of things we're talking about here (iirc, it's been a while since I've dusted it off), but it's a great resource for running a "medeval-like" rpg society.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:22 am

One thing to remember about the default D&D economy (and by extension the C&C economy) is that they are based on an economy beset by inflation due to the influx of riches brought in by adventurers.

It's the fantasy world Gold Rush.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:43 am

Well, if you want to be exacting, then yeah, the riches the PCs bring in should definitely have an impact on the fantasy world. For some reason, I never let it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:44 am

It's only exacting to reverse it. The prices listed already figure it in.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:48 am

That's kind of what I've always seen it as. Even if it's not, I never let a huge haul effect the market. I'm sure someone, somewhere, would tell me how wrong it is to allow that kind of stuff go on, but my players have enough to worry about without having inflation make adventuring supplies rise 300%.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:51 am

Yeah, the assumption made in AD&D in the price lists assume the inflation already. Suggesting the DM would only have to adjust the prices for things currently in high demand or short supply.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:02 am

I use the old Roman standard of 1sp for 1 day for soldiers.

The rest goes by supply/demand.

In a town of beggars a porter can go for as low as a few coppers a day.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:10 am

In the Classic D&D: Expert Rules (blue box or Rules Cyclopedia maybe) there was an extensive table for pay scales for various retainers including sages, sailors, and soldiers of various types.

I can look up the specifics if you like.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:20 am

The Expert Set prices are similar to those found in the AD&D DMG, though the DMG does give a little more in depth info in certain areas.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:01 am

Neither would the merchants. Otherwise the starving people will mob them to death. They would learn who the rich were and charge them one price, while charging the poor another.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:26 am

On a side note, I remember talking to Gary once about selling magic items. He told me one thing he hated was the idea of the "Magic Shop"; where PCs could go in at will and buy magic items.

Now selling them? He said that (IHO) there would always be a NPC market for buying magic items...but good luck for a PC finding one for sale.
...which is a good way of getting magic out of the campaign. Personally I never liked the fighter with the hireling carrying the PCs golf club bag full of swords.

"Oho! a Troll! Better pullout the +2 Firebrand spanky!"

Mike
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jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Mon May 25, 2009 6:18 am

A few sources of medieval prices if you want to roll your own....
http://www.amurgsval.org/feng-shui/prices.html (also inc. wages)
http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm
http://www.agyris.net/v3/articles/article.asp?id=67

Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon May 25, 2009 9:56 am

See, the way I have it in my games, its basically The Migration Era (Dark Ages) after the start of the Successor States period following the collapse of The Western Roman Empire. Blackmoor for me is basically Sub-Roman Britain where trade still exists and there are still some vestiges of Imperial (Thonian) power, but its mostly local now. The Great Kingdom (of Thonia) is basically a sort of Carolingian France.

This is why Silver is still used (its far more common than gold) where you go up the scale of coins (Oboli, Solidi, Ducat and Bezant) are increasingly rare because most of them are no longer issued. Even the Dinar (Electrum) is mostly silver with only some gold in it, which is why its worth less than a Steel Piece. As for costs, I used a modified version of The Lord of the Rings RPG since its a Silver-based economy.

As it is, most people don't really deal in coinage but in Barter. Its just easier to reference at starting in coins. At some point, somewhere, someone paid in coins for many of the items a starting PC has. Its just much of his equipment will likely be descended to him. Only a lucky few (Merchants, Mariners, Nobles, Paladins) will deal more commonly in coinage. Even mercenaries (typical Fighter) will likely recieve food, shelter and so forth instead of money. Adventurer's are the rare few who will ever come across a hoard of coins outside of some nobleman's fortress.
Edit: Unless someone is a retard (it happens, Ive seen it in games Ive been in) they won't try passing off high-value coinage in a town. No one would really know what in the hell to do with it. Its liable to attract unwanted attention in the form of angry merchants who've seen what little wealth they have go down the tubes and/or thieves who spot an opportunity to get out of a hellhole and live in luxury in Thonia. More intelligent PCs will take, say, a few Solidi they get and smelt them to turn into something like a bracelet or gilding for a shirt of mail that is more portable and a greater symbol of wealth than coins. A silver drinking cup or reed for an auroch's horn is a better use of wealth. Besides, unless they are buying property or getting new gear, there isn't a whole lot of use for PCs and that kind of wealth.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:59 pm

Okay, I have to confess - I've never messed with the standard fantasy economy. Why do it? I kind of know what to do, but I can't justify it in my own head.

I play the LotRO game. I don't know if it's the exact same as the RPGs, but it has a 100cp = 1sp = 1/1000gp. Now, I like that system and would even consider using it, as it appears to put the silver piece as the standard coin. But then I think about prices of items. and that's where I lose my resolve for changing the standard.

Going back to the standard system for a moment. If a backpack costs 2gp, and I change the cost to 20sp, what is that doing really? Or are item prices supposed to change? I'm not trying to be obtuse or sarcastic, I really don't know what it does to economy, the "why of it. I mean, it takes gold out of circulation and makes it "rarer" but if the only thing it does is make me convert all my gold prices to silver prices, then what's the point? Is gold supposed to take on a higher value if everything is converted to silver (akin to the LotRO system above). If so, why gather it if silver is going to allow one to purchase everything in the PHB as the same price with little more than more coin weight?

I know I'm missing something, and if someone would kindly educate me, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm just one of those folks that never thought about changing the standard because I didn't understand the advantages of doing so.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:02 pm

Going to a silver standard I would't think you'd change the Backpack price to 20sp. You'd change it to 2sp.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:22 pm

Really? So anything that was 2sp before goes to 2cp? Is that a correct assumption?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:24 pm

Thats my assumption.

But, like you I don't really fuss with the economic factors because it doesn't really interest me. I might adjust prices from time to time for supply/demand but thats about it.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:28 pm

Agreed.

If I want gold to be rare, I just give out more copper and more silver. I don't adjust prices too much, though. I'd give out less money to start (one time I gave out 30gp and that was it), but even the "starting money" I try to get my players to understand that it's not really "starting" money, it could account for items you've had in your possession or their family's possession for a long time - it's not necessarily shiny, new, equipment. I guess my lack of total understanding of changing the standards of economy has led me to stay away from physical changes, but I've toyed with it in my own ways.
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