Spell Resistance help?

Mr.Joel · Post by **Mr.Joel** » Fri May 29, 2009 8:25 pm

Just wondering if we are running SR correctly. The rules (3rd ed PHB) state that SR is like an armor class against spells. So, if a creature has (say) SR 5, does a spellcaster make a flat d20 roll, and his spell fails on a 1-4?

Previously I ran it as a SIEGE check, with the SR equalling the Challenge Level, and the caster adding his level and attribute modifier. So, with the same SR 4, the caster would need a 16 with a prime attribute. In a way this follows the AC analogy, because no Fighter is swinging on a flat d20 without BAB and Strength modifier.

The rules as written (and changed from a previous edition) seem to support the former interpretation. That means that all casters have the same chance of affecting a given creature with SR. It's like a "miss chance".

The latter interpretation makes SR more powerful, such that a beginning caster has little chance of affecting a Night Hag (SR 10 and, I believe, the highest in M&T). I actually prefer that, but what's RAW?

Thanks!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri May 29, 2009 8:49 pm

You need to roll over the listed SR number. Its been that way since the first printing.
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HatterMadness · Post by **HatterMadness** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:24 pm

At first i was kind of blown away that it was a flat d20 roll. But after some thought i actually really liked the idea. I mean the SR has to do with a creature's ability to shrug off magic, not the caster's ability to hit them with it, so a caster can't really learn to get better at beating an SR.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:45 pm

Rules as written = you must match or exceed the SR of the creature on an unmodified d20 roll or the spell fails to work on the creature.

So, if you have a SR of 5 and the caster rolls a 3, the spell fails because 3 does not => 5.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:11 am

Pete, with all the editing you've done on the PHB over the years, I'm surprised at you.
Mr. Joel, what serleran says is correct, and you have to equal or exceed the SR rating on an unmodified 1d20 roll. Otherwise, the "dreaded" Mantle of Spell Resistance wouldn't have people frothing at the mouth every time I mention that its SR of 21 is correct.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:24 am

Traveller wrote:
Pete, with all the editing you've done on the PHB over the years, I'm surprised at you.
Mr. Joel, what serleran says is correct, and you have to equal or exceed the SR rating on an unmodified 1d20 roll. Otherwise, the "dreaded" Mantle of Spell Resistance wouldn't have people frothing at the mouth every time I mention that its SR of 21 is correct.

Yeah, I thought the Mantle was a misprint when I first saw it. It's a crazy good item.

Then I thought, "Why would a fireplace need SR?"

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:29 am

Traveller wrote:
Pete, with all the editing you've done on the PHB over the years, I'm surprised at you.

Don't actually think I read that stuff do ya?
Sides, I'm tired and I made my own typo.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:09 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Don't actually think I read that stuff do ya?
Sides, I'm tired and I made my own typo.

I'm looking forward to seeing if PHB4 actually changes this rule. BECAUSE the Mantle of Spell Resistance STILL has SR21 in M&T3... hmm.
-O
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Mr.Joel · Post by **Mr.Joel** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:22 am

OK, so, SR 21= immune to spells? Handy...

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:26 am

Note, a SR of 21 typically means spell immunity... however, there may be ways (none current) to reduce such values. For example, the CKG might have an adjunct like "spell penetration" (or whatever name) that reduces SR by X -- it would still not a modified roll, since it would not add to the d20 -- it would simply reduce the needed value on that check. Though, for all intents, it could be considered the same thing as adding to the roll itself.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:49 pm

Omote wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing if PHB4 actually changes this rule. BECAUSE the Mantle of Spell Resistance STILL has SR21 in M&T3... hmm.
-O

Heh...yeah, I made sure I checked that. That was one of my early thread topics - whether or not the Mantle was correct. Apparently it was...and is. I wonder if there'll ever be anything that will allow additions to the SR roll, because I'm sure gonna piss off my players when they first encounter this...the BBEG will be using one.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:33 pm

Rest assured, the Mantle of Spell Resistance and it's SR21 has been discussed as errata for 2 printings now. The Trolls refuse to change it. So either there will be something in future supplements to change the spell immunity aspect to this most powerful of magic objects, -OR- it is a cloak of spell immunity.

I guess you could add in the thought that it was originally designed to be SR21 and if the CK wants to modify certain rules to overcome SR, than she can.

-O
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:59 pm

doesn't the Mantle of Spell resistance only do so against a set number of spells, or rather - specific spells, as alluded to in the xp table where it says 100 per spell?
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun May 31, 2009 2:04 pm

The Mantle of Spell Resisitance is always active and works against any number of spells, at least that is my interpretation based on the very brief description of this item on page 112 M&T3.

-O
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun May 31, 2009 5:57 pm

[quote="Omote"]The Mantle of Spell Resisitance is always active and works against any number of spells, at least that is my interpretation based on the very brief description of this item on page 112 M&T3.

-O[/quote]

Then there is conflicting information for this item.
I think how I'll house rule it for my games is to give the mantle a rating between 1-21. So it's not always SR21, but maybe find an SR 10 mantle...with xp 1000. (10x100 per item chart) It remains always active but the omnipotent SR21 spell protection version becomes a rarity, not the commonality find.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 31, 2009 7:47 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
Then there is conflicting information for this item.
I think how I'll house rule it for my games is to give the mantle a rating between 1-21. So it's not always SR21, but maybe find an SR 10 mantle...with xp 1000. (10x100 per item chart) It remains always active but the omnipotent SR21 spell protection version becomes a rarity, not the commonality find.

I'm just curious Go0gle, how is that info conflicting? I only ask because that's my intrpretation of it as well and if there is conflicting info, I would love to know what that is (this item has "bothered" me in the past ).

I like your house rule of it though. Adjustable mantles would be pretty sweet, actually.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:12 pm

The description says flatly SR 21. Yet the magic item table for experience says 100 per spell. The conflict is that you have a set finite value in one set of listing and a variable value in another. So which is it? SR21 flat value, in which case the 100 per spell is wrong and needs to be changed or is it a per spell or SR value and the description is wrong. That's how I'm seeing it from a literal viewpoint.
I can't see awarding 100 xp everytime a spell fails against the mantle.

The 100 per spell would imply that it was meant to be variable and yet we've a flat value maxed beyond the ability to roll in the description. apples vs oranges.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:02 pm

It's a flat SR of 21.

The EXP to me also seems correct. While with the various Armors of Spell Resistance you earn 100EXP per spell level, it's also possible to be affected by the spell being cast. With the Mantle of Spell Resistance, you're immune to spells so it's only logical that with the lessened level of danger comes a lessened amount of experience to go along with it.

On the other hand, the possibility exists that the armors and the mantle were supposed to have an EXP of 100 per spell resistance level, and this got shortened during editing to what exists now. If that were the case, the various armors would have EXP of 1300, 1500, 1700, and 1900 while the mantle would have EXP of 2100. This actually is in keeping with the EXP awards of the other items in the same tables.

Let a Troll decide, since I avoid this problem entirely by only awarding EXP when money is spent.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:13 pm

so the armors of spell resistance and mantle of spell resistance are infinite xp generators if the wearer is awarded 100 xp per spell level everytime a spell is resisted? Or is it simply a level of spells resisted. I've spent too much time around engineering and legal documents...*L* To me the way this is written and all presents definite ambiguities that, I agree, need to have a Troll Lord clarify.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:05 am

I can agree with Traveller's interpretation of it - it's supposed to be 100 XP per level of spell resistance offered. So the Mantle would award 2100 XP.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:11 am

Also note that anyone wearing a mantle of spell resistance is immune to beneficial magics, and could, theoretically, also not benefit from other continual effects as well, such as those granted by certain rings (ring of protection, for example) depending only on how one wants to interpret the flat resistance. So, in some ways, it is also (potentially) a curse.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:29 am

[quote="serleran"]Also note that anyone wearing a mantle of spell resistance is immune to beneficial magics, and could, theoretically, also not benefit from other continual effects as well, such as those granted by certain rings (ring of protection, for example) depending only on how one wants to interpret the flat resistance. So, in some ways, it is also (potentially) a curse.[/quote]

That would explain many things regarding the low xp and high SR; negating the need to roll for each item to overcome the SR when it mattered.
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HatterMadness · Post by **HatterMadness** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:56 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure the Player's Handbook says that a creature can choose to lower their SR protection to receive beneficial magic.... though perhaps that only applies to Natural SR and not the SR of an item you are wearing... given the choice, i would house rule it that way.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:18 pm

[quote="HatterMadness"]Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure the Player's Handbook says that a creature can choose to lower their SR protection to receive beneficial magic.... though perhaps that only applies to Natural SR and not the SR of an item you are wearing... given the choice, i would house rule it that way.[/quote]

Correct. It is the creature's natural SR that is subject to choice. Not a magical item, which would have to be removed to "lower or negate" its protection.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:58 pm

Also, there are some spells, such as summon swarm which do not grant SR to resist, and do not offer a save... so, having SR is not always a good thing, as it may be meaningless.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:14 pm

Right. Most spells that directly damage or influence a target are those that are normally subject to spell resistance. It's those other spells that can mess with an opponent, but not directly, that's the "c*i*k in the armor" of spell resistance.
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