Question about teleport

Banesfinger · Post by **Banesfinger** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:57 pm

A question about Teleport, Dimension Door, etc.

Most teleport-type spells allow you to bring along your posessions. Defining "posessions" has prompted many arguments in our game. Here are a few examples:

Can a wizard teleport away if he was manicaled to a wall? If so, do the manicals, chains or even parts of the wall teleport with him?

Can a wizard go up to a padlocked chest, hold the lock and teleport a few feet away. Would he take the lock away with him, leaving the chest unlocked?

(Same example, but gripping a locked door knob, handle, etc).

A spider / spell entangles the wizard in a web. Assuming the wizard can still cast, can he just teleport away? Does the web come with him?

So, my question is: when do objects become posessions?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:21 pm

1) No -- he likely cannot perform somatic components, if they are a requirement, so the teleport / dimension door is foiled before it can even begin; even if he could, the chains are part of the wall, and do not go along with the caster. Reason = wall is too much weight to be affected since these spells typically have restrictions.

2) No -- the chest would move with him, since the lock is part of the chest and it may not exceed the above mentioned weight limit; if it does, only the caster moves.

3) Only the part of the web affecting the caster, which might futher envelop, and htis only because the web is not part of anything.

4) When they are not part of something else, and can be carried, thus being under the weight restrictions of teleport / dimension door.

If C&C does not implement such a weight restriction, then you use your common sense as the Castle Keeper and do not let a player talk you into anything.
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:30 pm

This is an interesting question!

I agree with Serl on what he said except WHAT IF the pad lock was not part of the chest, but as with a modern pad lock, it has it's own loop which loops inside 2 other loops that are part of the chest. Then, its certainly small enough and not very heavy so can be considered a possession in the wizards hand - as long as the pad lock was held in such a way not to touch any part of the chest loops. A dex check may be needed to see if the wizard was able to hold the lock in place while casting.

Just my opinion!

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:38 pm

If a wizard wants to waste a teleport spell on a perfectly pickable lock, or even when Knock would work just as well, I say go ahead.

Circumstances always come around to bite back in these sorts of cases.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:46 pm

Jynx wrote:
This is an interesting question!

I agree with Serl on what he said except WHAT IF the pad lock was not part of the chest, but as with a modern pad lock, it has it's own loop which loops inside 2 other loops that are part of the chest. Then, its certainly small enough and not very heavy so can be considered a possession in the wizards hand - as long as the pad lock was held in such a way not to touch any part of the chest loops. A dex check may be needed to see if the wizard was able to hold the lock in place while casting.

Just my opinion!

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:50 pm

serleran wrote:
1) No -- he likely cannot perform somatic components, if they are a requirement, so the teleport / dimension door is foiled before it can even begin;

Dimenion Door and Teleport are both Verbal component only spells. Thus their goodness. Escape that grappling monk, tentacled terror, etc.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:16 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Dimenion Door and Teleport are both Verbal component only spells. Thus their goodness. Escape that grappling monk, tentacled terror, etc.

However that grappling monk would quickly 'silence' the mage if the mage began to cast.

M
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:18 pm

Not without casting times.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:21 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Not without casting times.

And here we go again......
Roll INIT to see who goes first!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:23 pm

Yep. That is one critical factor, in my opinion, about declaring actions beforehand, and not waiting to see what initiative order is like... so, instead of "umm, well, the fighter guy already went and hit me for 6, so I'm going to magic missile him" you get "so, umm, I'm going to magic missile that fighter... what the crap! I got hit for 6. Damnit, have to make a concentration check now."
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:33 pm

serleran wrote:
Yep. That is one critical factor, in my opinion, about declaring actions beforehand, and not waiting to see what initiative order is like... so, instead of "umm, well, the fighter guy already went and hit me for 6, so I'm going to magic missile him" you get "so, umm, I'm going to magic missile that fighter... what the crap! I got hit for 6. Damnit, have to make a concentration check now."

It's Easier said than done. We attemped declaring beforehand a few times, but what ends up happening is that everyone begins discussing what they are going to do and then people start to change their minds while discissing. This takes more time than is needed. It's better off just acting when it's your turn, and then it's a matter of honor system with my group. If you were swinging your sword, then decide to drop it and punch the guy, or choose a different spell, then you now have to wait until the first initiative round is up.

This is how we resolved to do it with my old group - you now go last. If multiple people now decide to go last, then you follow the same initiative order that you started with, but only for those who have not acted yet.

But back to the topic on hand.... oh yes... the wizard wasting his powerful teleport on a lock or in trying to get away from the monk. But wait... wouldn't the monk go with him? I can remember a few times where my mage teleported with some party members.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:36 pm

Only if the wizard had cast trap the soul to possess the monk. Heh.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:36 pm

Depends on how you take it. He "can", not "has to".

I wouldn't consider it a wasted use if it gets him outta the full nelson to live another day.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:40 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Depends on how you take it. He "can", not "has to".

I wouldn't consider it a wasted use if it gets him outta the full nelson to live another day.

Escaping a monk, No - of course not. But using it on a lock is questionable.

EDIT : I guess it all depends on the situation.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:48 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
If a wizard wants to waste a teleport spell on a perfectly pickable lock, or even when Knock would work just as well, I say go ahead.

Circumstances always come around to bite back in these sorts of cases.

That's what I was thinking. Or, someone with a sizable hammer could just whack the shit out of the lock.
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HatterMadness · Post by **HatterMadness** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:09 pm

Oh i like some of those ideas. Very inventive use of a spell. The manacled to a wall idea is especially good.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:11 pm

Jynx wrote:
And here we go again......
Roll INIT to see who goes first!

BAH!

Quote:
Mage: I cast a spell -- Teleport!

CK: As you begin to utter the mystical words that could bring you to safety, you get gagged and lose the spell.

M
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:17 pm

The rules do allow for verbal castings while grappling though. Even material components if they were already in hand.

Banesfinger · Post by **Banesfinger** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:35 pm

serleran wrote:
1) No -- he likely cannot perform somatic components, if they are a requirement, so the teleport / dimension door is foiled before it can even begin...

As shown, Vocal only.

serleran wrote:
...even if he could, the chains are part of the wall, and do not go along with the caster. Reason = wall is too much weight to be affected since these spells typically have restrictions.

Ahhh - the first of many cascading arguments we have had. So, buy your logic (an ours as well), if those manicals were anchored to the wall with threads instead of chains, the same logic would apply?

(extreme example for the sake of argument)

This seems to be the case, as a mage with a ball & chain flail teleports with both the ball and the chain.

serleran wrote:
2) No -- the chest would move with him, since the lock is part of the chest and it may not exceed the above mentioned weight limit; if it does, only the caster moves.

What makes something 'part' of something? As another poster said, what if the lock was not touching the locking rings of the chest? Is it touch that dictates parts of items as a 'whole'?

If so, a mage in a lake is 'touching' the water. Does the water come with him? Too heavy? Thus no mage can teleport out of deep water?

What about the pebbles sticking to his boots?

serleran wrote:
3) Only the part of the web affecting the caster, which might futher envelop, and htis only because the web is not part of anything.

Why only the part of the web affecting the caster? Your argument in #1 would show that every strand is 'part' of the web. Wouldn't he take the whole thing along?

Now what if some of that web is anchored to the ground, floor, walls, etc? Then the weight limit you mentioned in #1 would be in effect and the caster could not teleport. Correct?

So you can see our group has had plenty of "logic circles" arguments.

Coming from a d20 background, I was sad to see that C&C did not address these issues.

I was hoping for a rules-lite solution: perhaps stating "...there is a 50% chance of failure each time the spell is used when the caster's movement would normally be restricted (e.g. escape confinement/grapple, move past a barrier, take a contested item, holding extreme load, etc).

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:41 pm

Banesfinger wrote:
I was hoping for a rules-lite solution: perhaps stating "...there is a 50% chance of failure each time the spell is used when the caster's movement would normally be restricted (e.g. escape confinement/grapple, move past a barrier, take a contested item, holding extreme load, etc).

There is a rules light solution. Common sense. No reason a caster couldn't teleport out of a pair of shackles. Or a web spell, or similar. But why would they waste such a spell?
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:50 pm

Banesfinger wrote:
Coming from a d20 background, I was sad to see that C&C did not address these issues.

I also play D20 and the one thing you've got to understand about C&C, is that there isn't a rule for everything. Most times it's up to the CK to determine what happens and how to rule any situation. The C&C game offers a base from which you can do what you like. As you've seen from all these posts, there is quite a difference of opinion for most things, but in the end what counts is what the CK sais is law. These boards are littered with dozens and dozens of such discussions. Everyone offers up their opinion, and there is no right nor wrong. You simply take what you feel most comfortable with.

NEVER ARGUE with a CK/DM. That's my motto!

And BTW - I really like the idea of teleporting away with the lock. Rather ingenious I think, but I would wack at it first!

Banesfinger · Post by **Banesfinger** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:53 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
There is a rules light solution. Common sense. No reason a caster couldn't teleport out of a pair of shackles. Or a web spell, or similar. But why would they waste such a spell?

I guess common sense is a difficult call when you are dealing with a world based entirely on fantasy and magic.
Shackles, locked doors, etc, would mean nothing to mid-level (7th) mages. Does that mean prisons are obsolete for them?

Even a 7th-level rogue would have a hard time escaping a prison, and fighters, bards, rangers, etc would never be able to escape. Wizard: gone in 10 seconds.

(Yes, yes, you can gag the wizard - but that only works short-term, eventually he has to eat, drink, etc, then he's gone.)

I'm not going to go into an argument about inequality of classes, so much as the consistancy of worlds? These "unknowns" make common sense very difficult to judge.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:01 pm

Anyone ever watch JUMPER?

This discussion reminds me of that movie. In it the main character has the ability to teleport from place to place. There is an interesting scene where he ends up trapped under an ice covered river and teleports into a building, thereby taking a ton of water with him. You see him re-appear in the library and it looks as though there was a pipe that flooded a section of the library. I thought it was pretty cool and if my players would teleport from such place in my game world, I too would take some of the water with them.

It's all a matter of taste and story telling.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Banesfinger wrote:
I guess common sense is a difficult call when you are dealing with a world based entirely on fantasy and magic.

Not really. Even fantasy worlds have a certain consistent internal logic to them.

Quote:
Shackles, locked doors, etc, would mean nothing to mid-level (7th) mages. Does that mean prisons are obsolete for them?

Even a 7th-level rogue would have a hard time escaping a prison, and fighters, bards, rangers, etc would never be able to escape. Wizard: gone in 10 seconds.

Unless the prison has an anti magic shell on it? Cause, no matter how much guano the mage has in his pants, someone else has more.

Course, it all depends on how teleport is defined to operate in ones game? Is it a field effect like a Star Trek transporter? Or does one Bamf! into a wormhole like effect? Or does one dissolve into energy which ignores space time limitations?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:34 pm

Just cut out the offending mage's tongue if you actually cared to imprison him instead of burning him like the witch he his.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:36 pm

Banesfinger wrote:
I was hoping for a rules-lite solution: perhaps stating "...there is a 50% chance of failure each time the spell is used when the caster's movement would normally be restricted (e.g. escape confinement/grapple, move past a barrier, take a contested item, holding extreme load, etc).

It's called a concentration check and is in the PHB.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:44 am

Going by the rules, I think serl hit it pretty good back on the last page on a couple of the points.

A wizard can take himself and weight up to 50 lbs. per level. So yeah, the manacles are part of the wall I'd say, so nothing would go IMO. - except the wizard himself. So I'd say he could beat the manacles with teleport. In the case of the chest of the lock, I agree that the lock is part of the chest, and it would get teleported as a whole (lock and chest) if it's weight doesn't exceed the limit. I wouldn't be so kind to let the wizard bypass a lock this way, but that's me.
The closest thing I've ever seen to "overkill" for a spell was a Transmute Metal to Wood to turn a lock into a wooden lock and then the party cut through it with ease.
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