Monsters add HD for Grapple checks?

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:42 pm

Just confirming, do monsters add their HD in place of their Str/Dex bonus or do I read the rules literally and only give such bonuses to NPCs that have been built like PCs?

I'm almost tempted to say that a monster can add half of it's HD as bonus only if it has a Physical prime.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:14 pm

Monsters do not have Strength or Dexterity scores, so they add nothing. However, the Castle Keeper may give such attacks a bonus equal to the Base to Hit bonus, which is the same as HD for monsters, when they make such attacks, depending only on whether the Castle Keeper deems the creature "more capable" of such attacks -- for example, a constrictor snake most likely gets its HD added for grapples, but a prysmal eye probably does not.
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:59 pm

serleran wrote:
for example, a constrictor snake most likely gets its HD added for grapples, but a prysmal eye probably does not.

What? Don't you see those little fringe things on the bottom of the Prysmal Eye? They could latch on your arm in a heartbeat! It would so be like a chihuahua latched onto your leg!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:03 pm

I'm trying to recall the example from the PHB (as I don't have my PHB with me) - what was added in that? I think there was a monster in that example (a troll, if I'm not mistaken).
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:12 pm

The grappling example with the troll does not indicate any bonuses are added whatsoever to the Troll attack roll. The example is a troll trying to grapple a halfling. The halfling has a base grapple AC of 15+DEXMOD+STRMOD. Since the troll is 2 size categories larger then the halfling, the halflings grapple AC is at a -4 penalty (-2 / size category).

-O
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:54 pm

Hmm...that's a toughie, then. I'd hate to think something like an ogre or a troll wouldn't get any bonuses to the check. On the other hand, a bonus equaling a monsters HD could get out of hand.

Something for the CKG to address, perhaps?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:55 pm

Quote:
Don't you see those little fringe things on the bottom of the Prysmal Eye?

Because an artists represents something to their vision does not mean it was how the thing was intended.

But, as I've said before, considering the nature of the thing, Peter did well enough. Still looks like a squashed turtle, though.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:05 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Hmm...that's a toughie, then. I'd hate to think something like an ogre or a troll wouldn't get any bonuses to the check. On the other hand, a bonus equaling a monsters HD could get out of hand.

Something for the CKG to address, perhaps?

I give a flat +4 bonus to the larger grappler's STR check. I also give a Prime bonus to those with STR as a prime and let all grapplers add their level or HD to their strength check.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:45 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
I give a flat +4 bonus to the larger grappler's STR check. I also give a Prime bonus to those with STR as a prime and let all grapplers add their level or HD to their strength check.

Hmm...thats interesting. I might have to apply the size bonus, at least.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:49 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Hmm...that's a toughie, then. I'd hate to think something like an ogre or a troll wouldn't get any bonuses to the check. On the other hand, a bonus equaling a monsters HD could get out of hand.

Something for the CKG to address, perhaps?

Since a troll grappling is still a basic attack (against a different kind of AC), the troll still gets to add it's HD to the grappling attack roll. They just dont get any bonuses from STR or DEX (because they have none). From my perspective, I still think it's a fair trade off.

-O
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:10 pm

Omote wrote:
Since a troll grappling is still a basic attack (against a different kind of AC), the troll still gets to add it's HD to the grappling attack roll. They just dont get any bonuses from STR or DEX (because they have none). From my perspective, I still think it's a fair trade off.

-O

That's true. I think I was missing the forest for the tress. Thanks, sir!
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Mac Golden · Post by **Mac Golden** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:28 pm

I believe the rules explicitly state that the addition of BtH is up to the CK. This would apply to characters or monsters.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:06 pm

If one looks at the PHB, page 117 (of the 2nd print; I don't want to go look at the 3rd) it says under grappling two very important things:

Quote:
The attacker rolls a d20 and adds any strength modifier. The Castle Keeper may or may not deem the basic to it bonus as an appropriate modifier.

and...

Quote:
A standard armor class of 15 is used for all defenders... the armor class is modified by the strength and the dexterity modifier of the defender, as well as the size difference between the two opponents. For each size difference larger, add +2 to the defender's armor class. For each size difference smaller, a -2 penalty is imposed on the defender's armor class.

An example ---

Giant constrictor snake grappling a halfling monk PC...

Half-Monk has Dex of 17 and Strength of 15, for a +2, +1 = +3 modifier. Constrictor has no Strength or Dexterity scores, but is considered "skilled at grappling" so it'll get BtH, which for this guy is going to be +6. The monk is also considered a trained grappler by the Castle Keeper, so he'll get his BtH which is level-1 (let's say he's 6h level for a +5.)

Constrictor wins initiative and tries to grab the monk... normal AC becomes irrelevant. It is 15 + 3 = 18. But, the constrictor is Large and the Halfling is Small, so a -2 AC is given to the monk for the Large - Medium, and another -2 for Medium - Small resulting in an AC of 14. Constrictor rolls a 9 and adds his +6 BtH and gets a 15 = hit. Monk is now grappled.

We assume the monk breaks out (probably wriggles free using a Dex thing) and then tries to grab the constrictor's jaw to keep it from swallowing him (how classic Conan). The Castle Keeper determines this is a grapple so the constrictor gets AC 15, with no Dex or Str modifiers, but there is that whole size thing... which improves his base by +4 to a 19. Monk boy gets to add his Strength modifier to the attack, and his BtH, for a result modifier of +6. He rolls a 12 and misses. He becomes lunch the following round.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:29 pm

This applies PCs vs. monsters only.

I think the example of grappling in the PHB is a little too convenient. Convenient in the aspect that it's a halfling vs. a troll and the troll can keep up with the halfling on size differnece alone. I like the idea that there are not BtH involved for either side, in these rules. I really do. But one thing, I think the defender has the advantage, being able to add Str and Dex modifiers...considering the same size combatants. Unless the defender has no modifiers, but the ability to add those starts off being an advantage.

It's for this reason that I feel the monster should add his BtH, if for no other reason than to make up for not being able to add its Str and Dex modifiers (since they technically have none).

Just my two cents.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:54 pm

No, it applies PC vs. PC or PC vs. NPC or NPC vs. Monster or Monster vs. Monster. If something tries to grapple something else, the rules are writ.

The defender does have an advantage (an effective +5 AC...) but also a disadvantage (no armor bonuses at all.) If they are wearing plate mail, their odds of being struck are better (or worse depending whose PoV you take) if the thing tries to grapple (assuming it gets to add its BtH, anyway).

The real crux is not in the Dex or Str mods, but whether the attacker can add BtH or not... and that is all up to the Castle Keeper. A 78 HD monster that cannot add its BtH is a horrible grappler, so it fights differently than one that is only 6 HD but does get its BtH for grappling.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:22 pm

That's understandable...concerning a 78-HD creature-type scenario. I wouldn't allow certain creatures to add a BtH modifier to their rolls. A Prismal Eye, for example - I wouldn't let them to add their BtH bonus for the simple reason that it doesn't appear to have a "way to grapple" (please understand this is my interpretation of the rules and the creature, but that's all besides the point anyway). So yeah, the idea of it being the "CK's discretion" whether or not to add the BtH to the grapple roll is a good idea, IMHO, and I'm glad they actually wrote that in the book because sometimes it's a good thing for the reader to know that it's okay.

But like I said, and serl I don't know if we're on the same wavelength or not. When it's PC vs. PC. PC vs. NPC, or NPC vs. NPC, it's pretty cut-and-dried (assuming the NPC is fully statted). It's only when a monster is involved that matters. In the example in the PHB, I would allow the troll to add his BtH. Maybe it put the advantage to the troll, but as serl agreed, the defender is at an advantage as it is.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:46 pm

Actually, sometimes the base AC is a disadvantage -- say you're a giant with a base AC of 20. Well, if another large creature (let's say a half-orc ranger under the effects of an alter size: increase spell) grapples you, your base AC drops 5 points.... that is very significant. The ranger would get his Strength and Dex mods to hit you. Of course, in this case, it might just be better to swat at the giant with a weapon... but it does make things more interesting.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:57 am

Omote wrote:
Since a troll grappling is still a basic attack (against a different kind of AC), the troll still gets to add it's HD to the grappling attack roll. They just dont get any bonuses from STR or DEX (because they have none). From my perspective, I still think it's a fair trade off.

-O

Sounds reasonable.
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Monsters add HD for Grapple checks?

Monsters add HD for Grapple checks?

yes and no