Troll Lord Games

Because I've started toying with it in my last game and a poster on RPG.net asked about it, I'm asking you lot: how do you implement Weapons Mastery in your games?

Right now I'm pretty much using it straight from the book to replace all the other Fighter abilities from the C&C core book. It seems to work almost too well at level 3, with the fighter treating almost all 2HD or less opponents as mooks, killing one for every strike he makes. And his to-hit bonus is insane: Bth +3, STR Bonus +3, and Skilled +2 along with an Expert Weapon means that he gets a +9 to every roll! In addition, low level creatures have a hell of a time hitting him, and if only one does a turn, he simply knocks the blow away like swatting an irritating fly.

I can see it levelling out as he gets to higher levels, especially as you only get more ranks every 3 levels or so, but I've thought of reducing the skill bonus by 1 for each level, but I haven't really decided yet. What have you guys done...?
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

I think you have the right idea, slow down the scaling of his "powers", but not by too much. The good thing with the fighter is he can only effect one creature per round, where as the wizard can nullify whole groups with Sleep, WEb, Fireball, and so on.

So one of the things I ask myself when considering balance issues, "IS this more kick butt than anything the Wizard can do at this level?" If I can clearly say "No." then it probably isn't too bad.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Here's what I have been using:

For characters who want to be a little bit better (or even vastly improved) at the weapons they wield, this weapon mastery system has been developed. This was inspired by the Mentzer Basic D&D Weapon Mastery rules, but are much broader. Multiple different types of weapon mastery abilities can added to a character's weapon proficiency. However, this system adds a significant amount of complexity, dice rolling and power when compared to standard C&C rules and characters.
http://omote076.googlepages.com/CCWeaponMastery.pdf

~O

EDIT: Also, this system of weapon mastery is also directly tied into a skill system I use. So the usefulness of the system might not be that great.
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I usually make such things very complicated and then start simplifying. For example, I might come up with all sorts of weapon tricks and the like, and then decide to not bother, and simply provide bonuses to already existing combat maneuvers such as disarming. I would also likely increase the damage dice and perhaps allow "extra attack" to stagger somewhat.
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Serl's Corner

Treebore wrote:
The good thing with the fighter is he can only effect one creature per round, where as the wizard can nullify whole groups with Sleep, WEb, Fireball, and so on. So one of the things I ask myself when considering balance issues, "IS this more kick butt than anything the Wizard can do at this level?" If I can clearly say "No." then it probably isn't too bad.

Hadn't thought of it that way. I guess just knocking back the To-Hit bonus would probably be fine then.

Omote wrote:
However, this system adds a significant amount of complexity, dice rolling and power when compared to standard C&C rules and characters. Also, this system of weapon mastery is also directly tied into a skill system I use. So the usefulness of the system might not be that great.

Well, it isn't all that terribly complex, and I like the ability to 'pick and choose' one's bonuses, but the player using the rules is extremely prone to analysis paralysis which kind of makes me want to stick to the 'set' weapons of the original RC. Mind you, it has inspired me to limit the umber of additional choices he gets so he isn't so incredibly capable with so many weapons.

serleran wrote:
I usually make such things very complicated and then start simplifying. For example, I might come up with all sorts of weapon tricks and the like, and then decide to not bother, and simply provide bonuses to already existing combat maneuvers such as disarming. I would also likely increase the damage dice and perhaps allow "extra attack" to stagger somewhat.

I don't have the time to start from scratch, unfortunately...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Luther wrote:
Because I've started toying with it in my last game and a poster on RPG.net asked about it, I'm asking you lot: how do you implement Weapons Mastery in your games?

Right now I'm pretty much using it straight from the book to replace all the other Fighter abilities from the C&C core book. It seems to work almost too well at level 3, with the fighter treating almost all 2HD or less opponents as mooks, killing one for every strike he makes. And his to-hit bonus is insane: Bth +3, STR Bonus +3, and Skilled +2 along with an Expert Weapon means that he gets a +9 to every roll! In addition, low level creatures have a hell of a time hitting him, and if only one does a turn, he simply knocks the blow away like swatting an irritating fly.

I can see it levelling out as he gets to higher levels, especially as you only get more ranks every 3 levels or so, but I've thought of reducing the skill bonus by 1 for each level, but I haven't really decided yet. What have you guys done...?

At third level a fighter can only be Skilled. You cant have a weapon specialisation if you replaced it. (what I took you to mean when you say "replace all other fighter abilities").

Weapon Mastery is indeed best used to replace other fighter abilities like weapon specialisation (since they are IC one and the same meaning).

This is not overly powerful when comparted to, say, the ranger. Who with the same stats and level will attack at just 1 point bonus lower but with a three point damage bonus.

When using Weapon Mastery do not forget to apply these also to monsters. Orcs, hobgoblins, even trolls can become masters of their preferred weapon. And "critter" monsters like displacer beasts can also become expert with one of their natural attacks (note that many natural attacks can be used in several fashions and it would be most fair to apply the weapon mastery bonus to only one type, and use, of natural weapon. For example: if the monster has two claw attacks you would have to spend a weapon choice to learn Basic claw and another to learn Basic double claw).

Also, when you decide to use weapon mastety rules you are changing a basic element of the game and your new game will have a different flavor altogether. You are going to be in a more "cinematic" game. To compensate do what movie directors do: hire lots more extras. Extra monsters. Monsters with a level or two of some class (orc barbarians are my fav). And extra places to fight from (props). Since your players will likely become more daring now that they can hit more often they will start doing stunts like jumping off things and attacking so make sure a few more props are lying around for them to leap over, roll under, or smash through.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

CharlieRock wrote:
At third level a fighter can only be Skilled. You cant have a weapon specialisation if you replaced it. (what I took you to mean when you say "replace all other fighter abilities").

Weapon Mastery is indeed best used to replace other fighter abilities like weapon specialisation (since they are IC one and the same meaning).

This is not overly powerful when comparted to, say, the ranger. Who with the same stats and level will attack at just 1 point bonus lower but with a three point damage bonus.

I was talking about things like Combat Dominance and the C&C PHB Weapon Specialization. He doesn't need Combat Dominance, what with him killing one low HD creature a turn without even blinking and WEapon Specialization is already taken into account in the WM rules (although it is a bit high at +2 per mastery level)

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When using Weapon Mastery do not forget to apply these also to monsters. Orcs, hobgoblins, even trolls can become masters of their preferred weapon. And "critter" monsters like displacer beasts can also become expert with one of their natural attacks (note that many natural attacks can be used in several fashions and it would be most fair to apply the weapon mastery bonus to only one type, and use, of natural weapon. For example: if the monster has two claw attacks you would have to spend a weapon choice to learn Basic claw and another to learn Basic double claw).

Yeah, that's a good idea. I think he'll like the idea of 'duelling' with that type of PC on occasion to break up the monotony of hewing down hordes of mooks.

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Also, when you decide to use weapon mastety rules you are changing a basic element of the game and your new game will have a different flavor altogether. You are going to be in a more "cinematic" game. To compensate do what movie directors do: hire lots more extras. Extra monsters. Monsters with a level or two of some class (orc barbarians are my fav). And extra places to fight from (props). Since your players will likely become more daring now that they can hit more often they will start doing stunts like jumping off things and attacking so make sure a few more props are lying around for them to leap over, roll under, or smash through.

I do that anyway. My players are well rewarded for coming up with off the wall stuff.

As an example, in one game the ranger drove his +1 spear at an Ogre and rolled a '1.' Being the jerk of a DM that I am I ruled that he went low between the Ogre's legs and the enchanted blade stuck into the wall so deeply, that it would remain there until the end of the battle.

My player, undaunted, waited patiently until his next attack and then told me he was goign to slam down hard on his end of the spear shaft and make it sproing up into the ogre's b*llo*k. I laughed and told him that I'd allow him to roll to-hit, and if it worked I'd let him do normal staff damage. He rolled a natural '20.'

After we cleared the tears of laughter out of our eyes I ruled that the ogre was brought low by the smashed nads (stunned for a number of rounds equal to the damage) and then had the last laugh when I declared that the ogre, unbalanced and clutching his junk, was going to fall in a random direction, only one of which wasn't on top of a PC. Fortunately for the unlucky player, he made his Dex save to get out of the way...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Luther wrote:
As an example, in one game the ranger drove his +1 spear at an Ogre and rolled a '1.' Being the jerk of a DM that I am I ruled that he went low between the Ogre's legs and the enchanted blade stuck into the wall so deeply, that it would remain there until the end of the battle.

My player, undaunted, waited patiently until his next attack and then told me he was goign to slam down hard on his end of the spear shaft and make it sproing up into the ogre's b*llo*k. I laughed and told him that I'd allow him to roll to-hit, and if it worked I'd let him do normal staff damage. He rolled a natural '20.'

After we cleared the tears of laughter out of our eyes I ruled that the ogre was brought low by the smashed nads (stunned for a number of rounds equal to the damage) and then had the last laugh when I declared that the ogre, unbalanced and clutching his junk, was going to fall in a random direction, only one of which wasn't on top of a PC. Fortunately for the unlucky player, he made his Dex save to get out of the way...

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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

I'm considering something basic, but I don't it's usefulness (you'll see below).

I was thinking of extending Weapon Specialization to go beyond the core description. This will be my version of "weapon mastery." The description of the Weapon Specialization ability strays as written, and this would be my addition to fighter abilities:
Weapon Mastery: At 13th level, the fighter gains additional abilites with the weapon he or she chose to be the focus of Weapon Specialization. At 13th level, the to-hit and damage bonuses rise to +3 with his chosen weapon. The fighter, if using his chosen weapon, may add +1 to his initiative. Additonally, if two-weapon fighting and at least one of the weapons wielded is the chosen weapon, the penalties for two-weapon fighting are reduced by 1 (to -2 and -5). Lastly, the figher is so adept with parrying and blocking with his weapon of choice (regardless of shield use), the fighter's AC is improved by 1 while wielding the chosen weapon.

I know it's a helluva lot of bonuses. I don't know if they are too late in the game, though, for the fighter to enjoy them. I know they're not any later than 7th level wizard and cleric spells (and only one level later than Divine Healing and Quivering Palm) so I'm not terribly concerned. Any thoughts?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

They are a helluva lot lower than weapon mastery as presented in other D&D incarnations provide.
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Serl's Corner

At 13th level the fighters bonuses you propose are a little bit lackluster. The -1 offset penalty to two wepon fighting seems low because the the fighter is already at a +13 BtH. Regardless of DEX mods, I think there is little impact and therefore no reason a fighter would want to switch ti two weaps at 13th level. And you have to think does a +1 AC at 13th level really have an impact on the fighter in any real, measurable way? At that level, the fighter is probably facing threats that are +10 or more to hit more often then not. +1 here and +1 there seems weak to me at this level.

However, keeping the system simple in this way does really work well, and is in spirit with the C&C game. I think your method does have a lot going for it.

Just my two ceepees.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote wrote:
At 13th level the fighters bonuses you propose are a little bit lackluster. The -1 offset penalty to two wepon fighting seems low because the the fighter is already at a +13 BtH. Regardless of DEX mods, I think there is little impact and therefore no reason a fighter would want to switch ti two weaps at 13th level. And you have to think does a +1 AC at 13th level really have an impact on the fighter in any real, measurable way? At that level, the fighter is probably facing threats that are +10 or more to hit more often then not. +1 here and +1 there seems weak to me at this level.

However, keeping the system simple in this way does really work well, and is in spirit with the C&C game. I think your method does have a lot going for it.

Just my two ceepees.

~O

Understandable.

I think the two-weapon reduction is a little lackluster, true. I wasn't sure how much is too much.

In my opinion, I don't feel a +1 to AC is paltry. A free point of Armor Class for doing what you'd probably be doing anyway (fighting with your intended weapon) is pretty ince, IMHO.

Let me see if I can tweak it a little...know what you think of this revision.
Weapon Mastery: At 13th level, the fighter gains additional abilites with the weapon he or she chose to be the focus of Weapon Specialization. At 13th level, the to-hit and damage bonuses rise to +3 with his chosen weapon. This to-hit bonus doubles (to +6) when attempting to disarm an opponent. Also, the fighter cannot be disarmed by normal means, save for another fighter who has achieved weapon mastery. Additionally, the fighter can score a critical hit on any natural roll of 19 or 20, and critical weapon damage is tripled instead of doubled. Lastly, the figher is so adept with parrying and blocking with his weapon of choice (regardless of shield use), the fighter's AC is improved by 2 while wielding the chosen weapon.

If two-weapon fighting, and both weapons are the fighter's weapon of choice, the fighter's AC bonus increases to 4 (instead of 2) and the penalties for two-weapon fighting drop to -2 and -4.

That should put a little more "oomph" to the ability, maybe.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

I would add this:

A weapon master cannot be disarmed by a foe who does not at least match in skill. This does not mean a function of Hit Dice or levels -- it means the one attempting the disarm must also be a weapon master.
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
I would add this:

A weapon master cannot be disarmed by a foe who does not at least match in skill. This does not mean a function of Hit Dice or levels -- it means the one attempting the disarm must also be a weapon master.

That would work. I'll edit my second post to add that. Thanks!
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Luther wrote:
Yeah, that's a good idea. I think he'll like the idea of 'duelling' with that type of PC on occasion to break up the monotony of hewing down hordes of mooks.

The main issue here is your fighter has just been lucky. At 3rd level Weapon Mastery doesnt add a whole lot to defense. But since he is hitting a lot more his defense has been able to rely on that attack power. Not a bad strategy. One that I use a lot, too.

But eventually the luck should run out in a few encounters. Especially with "hordes" of bad guys coming after him. All those extra attack rolls on your side of the screen is going to pop up a few extra 20s or regular hits. And at third level the HP is not up to where it could be to soak up that type of damage.

Either your team is playing really good tactics as a whole, or your campaign is RP heavy and pitched battles are not that common.

I dont see it as an issue though. Your fighter has been seeing a great deal of success and your worried it is unbalancing the game. I havnt found it to be and when you start using an ogre with Expert mastery in Big Knobby Club or a minotaur with Skilled mastery in battle axes your worries should be at rest.

Also, if you have a rogue that concentrates his selections on one prefered weapon then it really lets this class hold its own in the combat arena. Not anywhere what a fighter can do, but more then when they either used bows or crept about all fight looking for a backstab.

I also resisted the impulse to let other fighterish classes get the fighter selection numbers. A barbarian or knight may sound like a logical choice when considering this. But the fighter is actually giving up a core C&C ability and these classes do not. And they all have abilities of their own which I thought balanced it all out.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

And, of course, there is always the option of allowing specific "feats" err, adjuncts, err, talents, err... whatever when wielding a mastered weapon, so Bubba the 12th level Swordswinger can function as 20th level forcombat dominance as long as he's got his trust sword of swinging.
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Serl's Corner

CharlieRock wrote:
The main issue here is your fighter has just been lucky. At 3rd level Weapon Mastery doesnt add a whole lot to defense. But since he is hitting a lot more his defense has been able to rely on that attack power. Not a bad strategy. One that I use a lot, too.

But eventually the luck should run out in a few encounters. Especially with "hordes" of bad guys coming after him. All those extra attack rolls on your side of the screen is going to pop up a few extra 20s or regular hits. And at third level the HP is not up to where it could be to soak up that type of damage.

Oh, he has been taken down a peg twice so far. He's been nearly killed once and at the end of The Keep on the Borderlands, we lost character after character in the Temple of Evil Chaos and left him close to death. First the Gnome Wizard got dogpiled and torn apart by zombies, then the Elven Ranger/Cleric got overwhelmed when they activated the 20 Zombies and 20 Skeletons in the Temple 'vestry' (they were doing alright until the chaotic High Priest used his secret door to cut off their retreat and send the turned critters back into combat) and the fighter only survived by cutting down the evil cleric in one blow and then running like the wind.

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Either your team is playing really good tactics as a whole, or your campaign is RP heavy and pitched battles are not that common.

I dont see it as an issue though. Your fighter has been seeing a great deal of success and your worried it is unbalancing the game. I havnt found it to be and when you start using an ogre with Expert mastery in Big Knobby Club or a minotaur with Skilled mastery in battle axes your worries should be at rest.

They do alright tactically, and try to avoid pitched battles like all good D&D palyers should (they've taken to the old school style like ducks to water and love it) but they still make mistakes that call the whole place down on them or end up trapping them in very bad situations, like the time they put their NPC henchman torch bearer behind them in a 'clear' room to provide the light while they fought the hobgoblin chief, only to have hobogoblins sneak in behind him from a secret door and plunge the place into darkness. A TPK and they never figured out where their torchbearer went. In fact they've lost more than a half dozen characters exploring the Caves of Chaos 'learning the ropes' of classic D&D.

So it isn't the 'mook a turn' but the 'evil NPC villian in one shot' that concerns me. The High Priest in the Temple of Evil Chaos is really heavily armoured, with a C&C AC of 21, but the fighter with Weapon Mastery still only needs a 12+ to hit him. And when he does, he causes D8+6 damage, which killed the bugger outright after the Sound Burst from the cleric a few turns before.

Now, the obvious cure, as many of you have pointed out, is to provide major NPCs with their own Weapons Mastery and that seems the way to go. It might certainly have saved the Minotaur from being brought down so easily...

Quote:
Also, if you have a rogue that concentrates his selections on one prefered weapon then it really lets this class hold its own in the combat arena. Not anywhere what a fighter can do, but more then when they either used bows or crept about all fight looking for a backstab.

I also resisted the impulse to let other fighterish classes get the fighter selection numbers. A barbarian or knight may sound like a logical choice when considering this. But the fighter is actually giving up a core C&C ability and these classes do not. And they all have abilities of their own which I thought balanced it all out.

Ah, now here is something I haven't done: open up the WM rules to the other classes. I really didn't think it necessary considering the fact that the Fighter was losing all other class abilities for WM and the other classes had more than enough to compensate. I figure if they want WM rules bad enough, they'll multiclass...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Luther wrote:
Ah, now here is something I haven't done: open up the WM rules to the other classes. I really didn't think it necessary considering the fact that the Fighter was losing all other class abilities for WM and the other classes had more than enough to compensate. I figure if they want WM rules bad enough, they'll multiclass...

You could go that route, too. But the fighter is going to outstrip the other fighterish classes in the long run (I think, not sure since I havnt played a high level C&C game, but I did take a BECMI game to 36 once). Tell me what happens as we cant undo the weapon mastery rule we already gave to everybody here. LoL
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

serleran wrote:
And, of course, there is always the option of allowing specific "feats" err, adjuncts, err, talents, err... whatever when wielding a mastered weapon, so Bubba the 12th level Swordswinger can function as 20th level forcombat dominance as long as he's got his trust sword of swinging.

huh? This is an exageration. Right?
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

Quote:
huh? This is an exageration. Right?

No.

Do you really think Mr. God of Swords is going to give a rat's damn about some unskilled and easily poked one-hit wonder orcs? No, he will cleave and chop them to bits before they can even come close...its the classic "mook" rule.

Of course, I would not use it, but 4e and 3e does (though they call it "Great Cleave.") It makes sense to improve the specific capabilities of combat-oriented classes as they improve their combat abilities... but, to what extent is up to the tastes of the people playing.
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
No.

Do you really think Mr. God of Swords is going to give a rat's damn about some unskilled and easily poked one-hit wonder orcs? No, he will cleave and chop them to bits before they can even come close...its the classic "mook" rule.

Of course, I would not use it, but 4e and 3e does (though they call it "Great Cleave.") It makes sense to improve the specific capabilities of combat-oriented classes as they improve their combat abilities... but, to what extent is up to the tastes of the people playing.

Oh, I see what you mean now. What do you think of using the Despair effect in btb RC/BECMI Weapon Mastery? (I've found that generally clears the "minion" types off the map pretty fast)
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

I dunno. I prefer the "kill em" and not "scare em" effect. However, a weapon master could "cast" a cause fear spell at level against level / 4 HD or something...
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
I dunno. I prefer the "kill em" and not "scare em" effect. However, a weapon master could "cast" a cause fear spell at level against level / 4 HD or something...

I've generally awarded xp to players when their monster opponents fail their despair check and flee. Same as if they killed them only ... er, different.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

CharlieRock wrote:
You could go that route, too. But the fighter is going to outstrip the other fighterish classes in the long run (I think, not sure since I havnt played a high level C&C game, but I did take a BECMI game to 36 once). Tell me what happens as we cant undo the weapon mastery rule we already gave to everybody here. LoL

It just occured to me what I did wrong. When the Fighter got 3rd level, I didn't just give him a single extra weapon choice, I literally gave him the full 6, so that he had 10 choices total! D'oh!

After figuring that out and, considering that last week all the party except the fighter bit it, I've seriously considered giving them the option of using the WM rules with their new characters. I thought of using the current selections for fighters as normal, using the one for 'everybody else' as the column for Rangers, Clerics, Knights, Paladins and Assassins. For Wizards, Illusionists and Thieves, I'd create another table which only adds +1 every 6 levels (so the progression would be 2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,7,7). Oh, and Fooey to the Deminhuman restrictions. No need for them without race-classes.

We'll see how that works...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Luther wrote:
It just occured to me what I did wrong. When the Fighter got 3rd level, I didn't just give him a single extra weapon choice, I literally gave him the full 6, so that he had 10 choices total! D'oh!

After figuring that out and, considering that last week all the party except the fighter bit it, I've seriously considered giving them the option of using the WM rules with their new characters. I thought of using the current selections for fighters as normal and using the one for 'everybody else' as the column for Rangers, Clerics, Knights, Paladins and Assassins. For Wizards, Illusionists and Thieves, I'd create another table which only adds +1 every 6 levels (so the progression would be 2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,7,7). Oh, and Fooey to the Deminhuman restrictions. No need for them without race-classes.

We'll see how that works...

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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

When I played/dmed OD&D the weapon mastery rules had a significant unbalancing effect on play. If I was to use them again from the rules Cyclopedia I would probably not let it go above skilled and reduce the bonuses to hit. In the spirit of fun the idea has merit but it gets out of hand quick.

It always seemed to make logical sense that a weapon master should just be that much better, but I think in general it's more disruptive than fun. Think about NPC chopping your players to pieces with weapon mastery or brushing aside there blows every round. The alternative of not having NPC's with weapon mastery is just as much of a problem.

The PC's mow down even none mooks or die horribly because of one bad role (as my players did sometimes multiple times a session failing their parry). What's even worse is what it does to premade monsters. a lot of cool monsters are not nearly as tuff when sir slice and dice has a +4 or +6 bonus higher than he should have to hit him. In games like C&C that's a huge bonus, it's like having a prime in sword fighting.

I'm not trying to brag or anything, but some of the things discussed recently seem to be a bit overpowered, when it comes to my idea and the more I think about the option I posted, the more I like it. If being able to strike as a 20 HD character at 12th (if I'm understanding it correctly) with weapon mastery or being able to cause fear is something one wants to do, then so be it. To me, weapon mastery with a weapon means clear superiority with one specific weapon over another but I wouldn't take it too terribly far. To others, it might mean taking on a mystical facet and allow the fighter to do things he clearly could not do otherwise. If that's the style and speed of the game, that's cool. I like a more natural approach, myself. I can't help but think of Conan, from the movies, and his "mastery" of his (bastard?) sword. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for. No offense to those looking for something more, though.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

I havn't gotten that far with C&C as far as levels go. So I dont know if WM rules unbalance the game past the tenth level or not. I have gotten pretty high in a BECMI campaign and I wouldnt have stuck with it if it wasnt for WM. As long as you consider:

*Tough monsters do not work alone. A manticore may be a challenge for 6th level characters but if you use WM rules add another. Or use monster teams like a harpy, manticore, cockatrice combo. If your using a module just give the monster WM based on HD.

*Do not forget your spellcasters when deciding treasure. Add a wand to the stack.

*At higher levels a monster with WM is not going to kill a PC with a lucky roll. But it might. What I mean is do not forget your teamwork. you may have a bad-ast character with GM Broadsword but somebody with M in battle-axe (or whatever) can still get a stun/disarm/knockdown. The damage wont kill you but failing to recover from this (easily done when your buddy comes in to save you) can be deadly.

*Magical weapons with high pluses (i.e. longsword of flames +5) are not needed. They are still nice (and actually gain a larger "oooo" factor) but not as necessary for a fighter to have. In fact a lot of players will not be on the look-out for magical items (except for their xp value) since their most powerful effects will be coming from the character.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

Luther wrote:
It just occured to me what I did wrong. When the Fighter got 3rd level, I didn't just give him a single extra weapon choice, I literally gave him the full 6, so that he had 10 choices total! D'oh!

That is the way the table was printed. A lot of people make that mistake.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

Something you MUST do if using weapon mastery rules--

Add Shield as a choice for weapon mastery slots. You MUST allow shields to deflect-- and I'd give them a bonus to do it as well. No way a sword should be the ultimate defending weapon, while the shield just gives +1 AC... That was one of my big issues with WM as written in RC. Also didn't like that Clerics were better at Deflecting than Fighters (since they have better saves).

The way we did it in my game was instead, Deflect was a DEX check (when doing RC, we did it roll under 1/2 your dex, +1 if using a shield. For C&C I adapted it-- Roll a Dex based attack roll vs. TN 12/18 with CL = Enemy's level. Shield gives +1 to the roll. Shield should allow 1 free deflect/round at basic, and get an additional deflect w/ each mastery level. I'd also give +1 to deflect/mastery level for the C&C version.
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