Limited Wish

garydee · Post by **garydee** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:44 pm

How come there aren't any aging effects for limited wish? It seems to be a little too good for a 7th level spell.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:51 pm

It is limited and can't do as much as the its big brother. Yes, it is powerful, but much more restricted -- there is no aging effect for shapechange and that is arguably the most powerful spell in the game, even more so than wish (since you might be ableto transform into something that can wish inherently.)
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:34 pm

serleran wrote:
...there is no aging effect for shapechange and that is arguably the most powerful spell in the game, even more so than wish (since you might be ableto transform into something that can wish inherently.)

But wouldn't the ability to use wish innately be a spell-like ability? And that's something that shapechange cannot duplicate. And if you have access to wish, there should be something more powerful you can do than shapechange (and you should probably have shapechange at that point). Of course this all assumes that the DM isn't evil and goes out of his way to ferk up any wishes a player may use. Just my two cents.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:49 pm

Sure, some may rule the use of wish is spell-like and they would be correct by the intent, but it doesn't mean one cannot argue the opposite.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:06 am

serleran wrote:
Sure, some may rule the use of wish is spell-like and they would be correct by the intent, but it doesn't mean one cannot argue the opposite.

I dunno, hoss. The way I see it, wish is a spell. If a creature has an ability that replicates a spell, then that's a spell-like ability in my book and thereby not subject to use with shapechange. A gynosphinx's flight, sure (even though fly is a spell, the gyno's not flying because of a spell-like ability). A gynosphix's legend lore ability, however, no sir.

But that's my interpretation. Your game, your rules. I'm just going by the book.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:26 am

The book is useless when one wants to simply debate.
Me, I don't run C&C nor do I have any desire to. But, if I did... I'd have no qualms allowing someone who had earned level 18 as a wizard the right to shapechange into whatever they could (though, I would always limit it to things the character had encountered... none of this BS about turning into a Demigod if one had never met such a thing) since that is the reward of being, likely, the most powerful spellcaster on the entire continent, if not most of the world.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:23 am

serleran wrote:
The book is useless when one wants to simply debate.

Keeping that in mind...

Quote:
I'd have no qualms allowing someone who had earned level 18 as a wizard the right to shapechange into whatever they could (though, I would always limit it to things the character had encountered... none of this BS about turning into a Demigod if one had never met such a thing) since that is the reward of being, likely, the most powerful spellcaster on the entire continent, if not most of the world.

I'd have no problems letting them turn into whatever they wanted, either (and if you wanted to limit them to encountered beasts, then that's fine, too). I'm not saying anything about that. I'm simply saying that if we're going to have rules why not abide by them? That type of rule was no doubt wirtten and included to avoid overpowered scenarios like this, I feel it makes sense to keep them in. Of course, as you said, as GM you'd have no qualms allowing them to shapechange into whatever they could. If that means keeping abilities they ought not have, then so be it, it's your game. I tend to like the balance the RAW creates, myself.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:41 am

Quote:
That type of rule was no doubt wirtten and included to avoid overpowered scenarios like this

Of course it was. I am choosing to ignore it. The rules as written are loose anyway, considering there is no definition of "spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary." Those are residual d20 phrases which leaves the Castle Keeper to decide what is what -- the implication is naturally that a spell is a spell-like ability, and thus forbidden but nowhere in the books (as of yet though the CKG may cover this) does it actually say that. So, your "by the book" answer is a self-interpretation of the rules... because the RAW doesn't tell you one way or the other, explicitly.

But, that said -- I don't care how others play, and I do find the needless adherence to "rules" funny, especially when "balance" is the goal. A smart player with a "weak" character can outkick a poor player with a "god character." Balance is not a mechanical aspiration and the false layering of it only serves to hamper what may be possible otherwise.

And, again, with that said -- rules do have some point: they give a general idea of what to expect. But, I would not suggest sticking to them with any sort of devotion. Change what does not work, and have fun with what does... players are rats. They will eat the box that is put around them to get to the cheese...
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:20 pm

serleran wrote:
Of course it was. I am choosing to ignore it. The rules as written are loose anyway, considering there is no definition of "spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary." Those are residual d20 phrases which leaves the Castle Keeper to decide what is what -- the implication is naturally that a spell is a spell-like ability, and thus forbidden but nowhere in the books (as of yet though the CKG may cover this) does it actually say that. So, your "by the book" answer is a self-interpretation of the rules... because the RAW doesn't tell you one way or the other, explicitly.

But, that said -- I don't care how others play, and I do find the needless adherence to "rules" funny, especially when "balance" is the goal. A smart player with a "weak" character can outkick a poor player with a "god character." Balance is not a mechanical aspiration and the false layering of it only serves to hamper what may be possible otherwise.

And, again, with that said -- rules do have some point: they give a general idea of what to expect. But, I would not suggest sticking to them with any sort of devotion. Change what does not work, and have fun with what does... players are rats. They will eat the box that is put around them to get to the cheese...

And there we have it. If we are simply debating, as you stated earlier, it's hard to do that when it's a "I have my method and I don't care for the rules or for what anyone else says" kind of conversation as this is. No offense intended, serl...none in the least. But this seems to be more of a "this is my opinion" type of conversation than "hey, let's talk about this" type of conversation.
Yes, spell-like abilities and other things are hold-overs from the d20 era, but so are a ton of things, the OGL included. But even if we look back to the old days, to 1st Edition, it wasn't intended that that type of action be condoned:

The 1st Edition PHB wrote:
The spell caster becomes the creature he or she wishes, and has all the abilities save those dependent on intelligence, for the mind of the creature is that of the spell caster.

My interpretation of that is the spell caster knows what he knows, but nothing the creature would know how to do, like grant wishes. Your milage may vary, though.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:07 pm

Quote:
If we are simply debating, as you stated earlier, it's hard to do that when it's a "I have my method and I don't care for the rules or for what anyone else says" kind of conversation as this is.

I see. We have a different form of communication. OK. I'll drop out of this as I really don't limited wish to continue.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:09 am

serleran wrote:
I see. We have a different form of communication. OK. I'll drop out of this as I really don't limited wish to continue.

Understandable. Well, for what it's worth, I don't mind debating with you serl, or anyone. But I was having a hard time there for a bit. You brought up a point, I counterpointed it, and it was dismissed because you said you choose to ignore the rule as written. And that's cool, there's nothing wrong with that at all. But I guess I agree, we aren't communicating very effictively, and it's kind of hard to have a debate that way.
So hopefully there's no offense taken, good sir, just because we don't see eye-to-eye in this case.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:49 am

shapechange simply gives you the natural attacks/abilities of the creature you change into, not the magical or semi-magical stuff.

So you would get the bite and claws, sonar if a bat, but you would not have breath weapon, spell use (unless you can use spells), or wish granting. That's assuming you knew how to use such abilities in the first place (the special stuff). That was established in a very similar discussion back in the 80s and 90s about this very subject.

A carefully worded limited wish or wish spell could enable such use however which is what makes either more superior to the more basic shapechange. Very carefully worded...

Anyhow...that's what i remember on the subject
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:40 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
shapechange simply gives you the natural attacks/abilities of the creature you change into, not the magical or semi-magical stuff.

So you would get the bite and claws, sonar if a bat, but you would not have breath weapon, spell use (unless you can use spells), or wish granting. That's assuming you knew how to use such abilities in the first place (the special stuff). That was established in a very similar discussion back in the 80s and 90s about this very subject.

A carefully worded limited wish or wish spell could enable such use however which is what makes either more superior to the more basic shapechange. Very carefully worded...

Anyhow...that's what i remember on the subject

I play it very similarly, Go0gle. I would personally allow the breath weapon, since I kind of see that as a "natural" ability of a dragon...albeit a very powerful natural ability. The spell use and spell-like abilities would definitely be ruled out, IMHO, unless it was abilities that the shapechanging creature had on their own.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:42 pm

I know how shapechange is intended to work, and have said such, but I could care less -- but, it really doesn't matter. Limited wish is nowhere near as powerful as a full wish, and thus, has no reason to age... in fact, depending on where one draws inspiration for the spell, it is actually a "mimic" spell, basically only being able to copy the effects of lower-level spells, which is only truly useful when you don't have the spell yourself... but, maybe that's an older version. Haven't really looked at how C&C handles these for some time, simply because I have had no need and likely will not have a need any time soon.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:21 am

Now why does Genie's introduction to Aladdin come to mind when thinking on this?

"PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER! itty bitty living space."

"...there are some provisos, prid quo pros..."
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Because movies are fun to quote?
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:12 am

:serleran" wrote:...near as powerful as a full wish, and thus, has no reason to age... in fact, depending on where one draws inspiration for the spell, it is actually a "mimic" spell, basically only being able to copy the effects of lower-level spells

For the record, serl, Wish duplicates other 9th level spells, too. Which is a teeny bit odd, since Limited Wish (a 7th level spell) only duplicates 6th level and lower. I guess that might be why some consider Wish to be the most powerful. But yes, I agree with you that Limited Wish is not on the same playing field as Wish, and thus does not require the same penalties.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.