Backstabbing Question

garydee · Post by **garydee** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:41 pm

It says that a rogue can only backstab with a weapon that is shorter than his arm. Would a short sword work with a human or would it be too long?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:08 pm

A short sword blade is usually about a cubit, which is the length of the forearm, so the short sword is definitely a backstabbing weapon... if not the near eminent one, right after dagger.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:57 pm

Personally just define it as having to be, "The blade must be no more than 2 feet long to be used in back stab attacks."

Much clearer, and isn't prejudicial against humans who are only 3 to 4 feet tall.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:07 pm

3 - 4 foot humans?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:23 pm

Relaxo wrote:
3 - 4 foot humans?

Yep. Say you use Ultimate Toolbox to determine your PC's heights, the charts actually breaks down to account that there are "dwarf" sized humans.

Or you use some other similar chart that takes into account such realities of genetics.

C&C assumes minimum human height as 5 foot 6 inches, which deeply offends my wife at 5 foot 3 and 3/4 inches. According to C&C she is a dwarf, not a human, despite being at the 50th percentile for woman.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:11 pm

Treebore wrote:
Yep. Say you use Ultimate Toolbox to determine your PC's heights, the charts actually breaks down to account that there are "dwarf" sized humans.

Or you use some other similar chart that takes into account such realities of genetics.

C&C assumes minimum human height as 5 foot 6 inches, which deeply offends my wife at 5 foot 3 and 3/4 inches. According to C&C she is a dwarf, not a human, despite being at the 50th percentile for woman.

Last I heard, the average US women's height was 5'4" and the men's was 5' 10". So C&C is a bit off the American norms.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:24 pm

dachda wrote:
Last I heard, the average US women's height was 5'4" and the men's was 5' 10". So C&C is a bit off the American norms.

Exactly, which means 50% of woman are BELOW 5'4" and 50% of men are BELOW 5'10".

So by C&C standards over 50% of US men are married to dwarves.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:06 pm

use 48" as a base human and roll 3d12 or 6d6.... gives you a range of 4'3" to 7'0" if you prefer something with a bit wider and more normal range.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:12 am

Man, I'm loving all this technical talk!
But yes, as serl said gary, a shortsword is fine in almost every case.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:33 am

I dont use that rule. I dont see why someone would be unable to backstab with a polearm. As long as one has the skill to do so. Which the book assumes rogues to be skilled in scythes and sleeve tanglers (both longer then an arm and the tangler is almost pole arm sized)
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:43 pm

I could actually see the rule for Sneak Attacks, but I agree with you, Charlie - for back attacks if the victim is unaware then I don't see where the size of the weapon is that big of a concern. *shrug*
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:40 pm

true, Tree, there are real 3' humans. I wasn't thinking real in this case.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:31 pm

Backstab in a tavern with a ballista...

classic scene...
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:36 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
Backstab in a tavern with a ballista...

classic scene...

"Can I steal his pants?"

"*sigh* Roll ..."

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:40 pm

Because there is no given size for weapons, when the rogues want to back attack I am also of the belief that if said rogue is skilled with the weapon he should be able to backstab with it. Though, mechanically speaking I think there does need to be some kind of hard rule regarding what weapons can be used. In looking at the weapons table I figured best that a rogue can backstab with any weapon that has an EV 3 or less, also following all of the rules presented under the back attack ability.

This ruling has ending up being a simple way to define what the character can use in place of the arm's length rule (which is subjective).

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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:39 pm

Do you allow back attacks or sneak attacks with ranged weapons? How about a non-lethal Death Strike from an assasin (like with a blackjack)?
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:47 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I dont use that rule. I dont see why someone would be unable to backstab with a polearm. As long as one has the skill to do so. Which the book assumes rogues to be skilled in scythes and sleeve tanglers (both longer then an arm and the tangler is almost pole arm sized)

I believe (based on almost nothing) the intent of the rule is that it's a stabbing weapon... a small one. or maybe it's just a 'game balance' issue.

though if you catch the victim unawares, they have NO IDEA you're there, sure, why not use a 1d12 maul?

I really think the idea of the extra damage was the rogue knows just where the "sweet spots" are to slip the blade in extra deep, between a rib, to cut thru the lungs so they can't scream, and get the point into the heart for the extra damage.* that's the impression I've always had, the finesse needed requires a small weapon.

Just my $0.02

*anyone ever done it as an automatic critical hit? That's like, 3 house rules in one, but hey.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:50 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Do you allow back attacks or sneak attacks with ranged weapons? How about a non-lethal Death Strike from an assasin (like with a blackjack)?

Sheak attacks, btb, are allowed.

I can definitely see allowing the Death Attack being used non lethally.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:18 am

CharlieRock wrote:
Do you allow back attacks or sneak attacks with ranged weapons? How about a non-lethal Death Strike from an assasin (like with a blackjack)?

I would, personally. I liked the d20/3.x (can't recall if it was around earlier) that sneak attacks could be made from up to 30' out. I wouldn't see a problem with that personally.
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