My heavily house-ruled version of C&C

stoneshape · Post by **stoneshape** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Hi Metathiax

1st great work, i gave it a quick skim will look more later

2nd any chance to get Class Rebalancing Spread Sheet and Character Alignment Tracking Sheet in PDF! .xls never works for me, i'm not so hot with computers. I'd really like to see how and why you spent/alloted the 50 points to each class!!!

3rd your probably correct but i thought +1 to hit more valuable than +1 damage refering to costing masterwork weapon, please enlighten me on this

I applaud your efforts

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:33 pm

Quote:
1st great work

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed my rather unconventional take on the C&C rules.

Quote:
2nd any chance to get Class Rebalancing Spread Sheet and Character Alignment Tracking Sheet in PDF

Actually yes, I think I may have overestimated people's familiarity or appreciation of Microsoft Office when I first wrote those files. I've already asked for advice on the best way of converting my files to PDF (other than paying up an indecent amount of money to Adobe for this simple service...) and consider that to be under way. It's a good thing that your interest pressures me to proceed faster than I otherwise would.

Quote:
3rd your probably correct

Never assume that I'm correct.

Quote:
but i thought +1 to hit more valuable than +1 damage refering to costing masterwork weapon

Interesting point, I chose to make it this way since they are not as many ways to increase the damage dealt than the probability to hit. After all, a character's BtH progresses with experience while his damage output stays pretty much the same. Did you base this idea on a book that you own because I am now having second thoughts about this...
I'll soon put out a new version with a few tweaks (maybe including your suggestion ) and somewhat expanded appendices.

Thank you for reading my stuff!
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Death Slaad · Post by **Death Slaad** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:45 pm

Metathiax wrote:
Actually yes, I think I may have overestimated people's familiarity or appreciation of Microsoft Office when I first wrote those files. I've already asked for advice on the best way of converting my files to PDF (other than paying up an indecent amount of money to Adobe for this simple service...) and consider that to be under way. It's a good thing that your interest pressures me to proceed faster than I otherwise would.

I do not know if you got some advice allready, but for me the by far best solution is OpenOffice, it is free and it will open all your MS Office files. And it is able to export those files into pdf format. You must be willing to install OO of course, but it is not that big, and for me it worked much better than various free (but mostly full of ads and adware) pdf printer. And it also creates a pdf Index, using the Header Tags of your word documents.

(I used OO to create a 50+ pages houserules document for an Arcana Evolved Campaign in the Forgotten Realms, the index helped a lot)

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:41 pm

Quote:
I do not know if you got some advice allready, but for me the by far best solution is OpenOffice

Open Office has been suggested to me but I've tried PrimoPDF instead and, so far, it works very well without any annoying ads.

Thanks!
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:43 pm

Stoneshape,

My class rebalancing spreadsheet and my character alignment tracking chart are now available as PDFs on my web page as requested.
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:32 pm

I've made the 5th version of my house rules available on my web page. I've mostly expanded my deity listing, rebalanced (again... ) the weapons, revised some of the races and made other minor tweaks here and there. I don't expect to make any more changes for a while now (I think that's enough messing around already... ).
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:34 pm

This will make it look as if I couldn't keep my word (unless you consider "a while" to be a little more than one month...), but the 6th version of my house rules is available on my web page. Other than the occasional revision, tweak or correction, I have added a new race (the Wild Elf) and a much needed table of contents. The original .doc from which this .pdf was created actually was bookmarked to facilitate in-file navigation but I didn't have much luck in converting this feature yet...

I think I can now safely say that all the features I wanted to see in C&C (among which are a universal XP progression, multi-classing system, greater selection of classes & races, secondary skills, language & weapon proficiencies, balanced weapons & armors, flexible spellcasting, and more combat manoeuvers) have been integrated and, hopefully, make the most out of the SIEGE engine while keeping it fast and simple.
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:48 am

My pdf file's bookmarks (they are very useful!) are now working well. I must say that Open Office rocks!
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:18 pm

Fantastic work! You've really created a system of your own from the C&C groundwork.

One question...what is the "Colin 'Sez volume 1" or CSv1? I've seen it referenced in your work, but don't know where to find it.

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:02 pm

Quote:
One question...what is the "Colin 'Sez volume 1" or CSv1? I've seen it referenced in your work, but don't know where to find it.

I'm pretty sure I've included the link to Colin's fine work in my file but here it is just in case...

Quote:
Fantastic work! You've really created a system of your own from the C&C groundwork.

Thanks for the kind words. In adapting C&C to suit my taste, I did my best not to add needless complexity to the game's already great system. The page count may look a bit intimidating for a house rules document but most of it is just about rebalancing the 10 races and 25 classes (I think that's more than enough to play pretty much any worthwhile character concept I can think of... ) so that a uniform XP progression could be used (a feature of 3.Xe D&D which I really like). Who knows maybe you'll find some of this stuff to be of use in your own campaign. If you do, I would be happy to know what worked and what didn't for you.
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:06 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
1st off, thanks for putting a link to my C&C site on your site Metathiax. When I get a chance, I'll return the favor.

I'm looking forward to checking out your C&C House Rule project. I have a similar labor of love (and OCD!) that I'm working on and it'll be good to have another point of reference on how to approach my C&C Revision.

My quasi-finished version is available HERE. Like you, I'd love to get feedback from my fellow C&Cers... even if it's ranting, frothing condemnation (so long as it's constructive, frothing condemnation).

Happy gaming!

PS: Right-click and download the file, as it's a little over 9Mb in size!

HOLY CRAP IS THAT COOL.

Let it be known that I will be printing this off. I looked at your Unearthed Arcana stuff, too, which also rocks.

However, have you included the OGL in there anywhere? If not, you would be very wise to do so.

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:16 pm

Metathiax wrote:
csperkins1970 wrote:

As for the psionics, I think that Grey-Elf did a great job with them. In my opinion, he managed to get the right feel out of them (which is no easy feat).

And even though I've only designated a small portion of my psionics rules as OGC, I would be happy to grant permission for csperkins to insert my entire rules into his Unearthed Arcana...on the sole conditions that he include the OGL in that file, and only declare as OGC the sections I have declared OGC. The rest he can list as product identity (of mine, of course), republished by permission.

Also, given that he's using previously published works as a model, I'd like a note releasing me from any responsibility should he run into problems over that...

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:52 pm

The Grey Elf wrote:
HOLY CRAP IS THAT COOL.

Let it be known that I will be printing this off. I looked at your Unearthed Arcana stuff, too, which also rocks.

However, have you included the OGL in there anywhere? If not, you would be very wise to do so.

Thanks! I will be sure to add an OGL thingy to my AD&D 3rd Edition documents. Once I do, I'd be happy to check out your psionics stuff. At this point, I'm slowly plodding through my Monster Manual and have been handling psionics as spell-like abilities.

If I have any questions about the wording of my OGL declaration, I'll be sure to look your way Grey-Elf!

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:42 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
Thanks! I will be sure to add an OGL thingy to my AD&D 3rd Edition documents. Once I do, I'd be happy to check out your psionics stuff. At this point, I'm slowly plodding through my Monster Manual and have been handling psionics as spell-like abilities.

If I have any questions about the wording of my OGL declaration, I'll be sure to look your way Grey-Elf!

Feel free. It's important to get it right, to protect your work. But it's simpler than it appears at first glance.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:28 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
Thanks! I will be sure to add an OGL thingy to my AD&D 3rd Edition documents. Once I do, I'd be happy to check out your psionics stuff. At this point, I'm slowly plodding through my Monster Manual and have been handling psionics as spell-like abilities.

If I have any questions about the wording of my OGL declaration, I'll be sure to look your way Grey-Elf!

Regarding the OGL...

Based on personal experience with my "Beat 'em To A Pulp!" article, do NOT add the OGL to your documents. Your documents utilize WotC product identity (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and the TSR logo) which the OGL does not permit you to use. Further, you consistently rename Castles & Crusades as Dungeons & Dragons throughout, which may cause marketplace confusion. By adding the OGL, you would in fact be in violation of the OGL's product identity clauses.

I had the OGL on the aforementioned article, and a representative of Iron Crown Enterprises appeared. He suggested that the only thing be done with the article outside of removing the OGL is acknowledging the copyrights to all systems used. In your case, you want to acknowledge that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is a WotC trademark, and you want to acknowledge that you're using the Castles & Crusades game system as well as its trademarks.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:37 pm

Traveller wrote:
Regarding the OGL...

In your case, you want to acknowledge that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is a WotC trademark, and you want to acknowledge that you're using the Castles & Crusades game system as well as its trademarks.

Hmmm... sounds like a plan. I want to give credit where it's due (WoTC and TLG) but don't want to strip the file down so as to not violate product identity. The whole point is to present a C&C/AD&D amalgam that highlights AD&D's "old school" art and flavor.

Thanks for your insights. When I get a chance, I'll add a blurb crediting my source materials.

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:07 pm

Traveller wrote:
Regarding the OGL...

Based on personal experience with my "Beat 'em To A Pulp!" article, do NOT add the OGL to your documents. Your documents utilize WotC product identity (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and the TSR logo) which the OGL does not permit you to use. Further, you consistently rename Castles & Crusades as Dungeons & Dragons throughout, which may cause marketplace confusion. By adding the OGL, you would in fact be in violation of the OGL's product identity clauses.

I had the OGL on the aforementioned article, and a representative of Iron Crown Enterprises appeared. He suggested that the only thing be done with the article outside of removing the OGL is acknowledging the copyrights to all systems used. In your case, you want to acknowledge that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is a WotC trademark, and you want to acknowledge that you're using the Castles & Crusades game system as well as its trademarks.

That's a very good point, Traveller, which I hadn't considered. As it stands, however, he runs the chance of someone from WotC or TLG showing up at his site and saying, "CEASE AND DESIST." I'd hope that doesn't happen, but it's feasible...

So Perkins, how comes the Unearthed Arcana? Looking forward to grabbing the finished product on that one as well...

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:46 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
My quasi-finished version is available HERE. Like you, I'd love to get feedback from my fellow C&Cers... even if it's ranting, frothing condemnation (so long as it's constructive, frothing condemnation).

Great job! That's some major work you put in there. I loved seeing all the old art! And from many different books! Ah memories. I only browsed the whole document, but it looks extremely well done. How long did it take you?

BTW, I noticed that under Cavalier, you have "knight" mentioned in some class ability descriptions. I don't know if you meant it that way, but just thought I'd point it out.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:48 pm

The Grey Elf wrote:
That's a very good point, Traveller, which I hadn't considered. As it stands, however, he runs the chance of someone from WotC or TLG showing up at his site and saying, "CEASE AND DESIST." I'd hope that doesn't happen, but it's feasible...

So Perkins, how comes the Unearthed Arcana? Looking forward to grabbing the finished product on that one as well...

Right now I'm still doing a Monster Manual... it's VERY slow going (I'm up to the letter "C").

Hopefully WotC or TLG sees that my system is a meshing of both of their systems and is not truly compatible with either one (it's closer to D&D in some ways/to C&C in others).

The sticking points are the copyrighted illustrations and flavor text that I'm using. The whole point is that it is an homage to the greatness of both games... with me trying to iron out the differences in a consistent and workable way.

I'm doing this for myself and sharing it for free BUT, if either company wants me to, I'll have to take it off of my site... which would suck.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:53 pm

Dristram wrote:
Great job! That's some major work you put in there. I loved seeing all the old art! And from many different books! Ah memories. I only browsed the whole document, but it looks extremely well done. How long did it take you?

BTW, I noticed that under Cavalier, you have "knight" mentioned in some class ability descriptions. I don't know if you meant it that way, but just thought I'd point it out.

Please let me know what works or doesn't as you look through it. The cavalier class descriptions that use the word "knight" are not an error... they are one in the same. If you think it would cause some confusion to players I'll definitely change it.

PS: Looking it over just now I'm thinking I will get around to changing "knight" to cavalier REALLY soon.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:08 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
PS: Looking it over just now I'm thinking I will get around to changing "knight" to cavalier REALLY soon.

I say that if your idea for cavalier is the quintessential knight, then use knight as a description of the cavalier to draw the parallel in the eyes of the reader. I was initially wondering if you were doing what I had done which was take the word knight from the class list and replace it with cavalier and then use knight as a title earnable by the various warrior classes, i.e. fighter, paladin, ranger, and cavalier. For my cavalier class, the title knight was earned automatically at 8th level when they achieve Battlefield Dominance.

But having read the early history of the knight, and also cavalier, the knight was initially just a man-at-arms, or fighter, who owned a horse and served his lord. This evolved into official knighting ceremonies where knight became a title, and also knights primarily coming from those whose fathers and grandfathers were knights, who eventually through service to their lords gained land of their own, thus becoming nobility, and so knights became a fighter of the noble class. I then saw the knight of C&C as more the early version of the knight, before knight was a title.

Cavalier was a name that came about as those cavalrymen who served King Charles I in the mid-1600s, which really had nothing to do with the lance wielding, full armor wearing knights of the medieval period. Because Im picky of historical terms, Im dropping the name cavalier and going back to knight.

Holy crud I went off on a tangent!
Don't ask me what I discovered about the name paladin!

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:14 am

Dristram wrote:
Don't ask me what I discovered about the name paladin!

Lol, what did you discover

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:02 am

phadeout wrote:
Lol, what did you discover

Dang'it! Can't resist now....I found that the name paladin gets its origins from from an ancient roman special guard called the palatini who were trained in the Palatinae military school on the Palatine Hill. The famous Praetorian Guard came from this school, so could be considered the earliest of paladins. Paladins were initially referred to as count palatines, from the latin palatinus, meaning palace official, and were representatives of the king.

The most famous paladins were the 12 paladins of Charlemagne until the Celtic Revival of the 1800's when the Irish story of King Arthur took the lime light and we today now see paladins as represented by Arthur and his knights.

Though initially paladins were palace officials and perhaps special elite palace troops, today they are defined as a knight who fights for a cause. And it is D&D that made them holy defeaters of evil and the undead.

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:44 am

Dristram wrote:
Dang'it! Can't resist now....I found that the name paladin gets its origins from from an ancient roman special guard called the palatini who were trained in the Palatinae military school on the Palatine Hill. The famous Praetorian Guard came from this school, so could be considered the earliest of paladins. Paladins were initially referred to as count palatines, from the latin palatinus, meaning palace official, and were representatives of the king.

The most famous paladins were the 12 paladins of Charlemagne until the Celtic Revival of the 1800's when the Irish story of King Arthur took the lime light and we today now see paladins as represented by Arthur and his knights.

Though initially paladins were palace officials and perhaps special elite palace troops, today they are defined as a knight who fights for a cause. And it is D&D that made them holy defeaters of evil and the undead.

Did you recite all that from memory?

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:52 am

Unfortunately, yes. Though I did use the internet to make sure I spelled some words correctly. BTW, wikipedia has all of it! Wikipedia is amazing! Who writes all that stuff? hehe

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:35 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
Right now I'm still doing a Monster Manual... it's VERY slow going (I'm up to the letter "C").

Hopefully WotC or TLG sees that my system is a meshing of both of their systems and is not truly compatible with either one (it's closer to D&D in some ways/to C&C in others).

The sticking points are the copyrighted illustrations and flavor text that I'm using. The whole point is that it is an homage to the greatness of both games... with me trying to iron out the differences in a consistent and workable way.

I'm doing this for myself and sharing it for free BUT, if either company wants me to, I'll have to take it off of my site... which would suck.

Honestly? What you have here is a really kickass original game. 99% of your mechanics are OGC anyway, and what isn't could be renamed to file off the serial numbers. Even the stat generation is OGC by virtue of appearing in Mongoose's Pocket Player's Handbook. My personal opinion is that you should nix the WotC/TLG IP, get some original artwork, rewrite flavor text, come up with an original name that is evocative of D&D and/or C&C but is your own (Dragons and Trolls, perhaps? Advanced Caverns and Kobolds? Something like that), slap the OGL on it, and publish the sumbitch as a new game under the OGL.

Starting overhead can be very low if you go by way of Lulu Print on Demand. Artwork would be the real kicker, unless you're an artist or know people who would be willing to donate to the cause to help their portfolio.

[EDIT]My plan today is to go to the FLGS and buy a cheap old 1st ed. PHB (he always has a bunch in stock for like $5 a pop), cut the pages out, and bind this into it .

Of course, I'll velo bind the pages back together to keep a spare 1E PHB, too, but that's beside the point

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:40 pm

The Grey Elf wrote:
Honestly? What you have here is a really kickass original game. 99% of your mechanics are OGC anyway, and what isn't could be renamed to file off the serial numbers. Even the stat generation is OGC by virtue of appearing in Mongoose's Pocket Player's Handbook. My personal opinion is that you should nix the WotC/TLG IP, get some original artwork, rewrite flavor text, come up with an original name that is evocative of D&D and/or C&C but is your own (Dragons and Trolls, perhaps? Advanced Caverns and Kobolds? Something like that), slap the OGL on it, and publish the sumbitch as a new game under the OGL.

Starting overhead can be very low if you go by way of Lulu Print on Demand. Artwork would be the real kicker, unless you're an artist or know people who would be willing to donate to the cause to help their portfolio.

[EDIT]My plan today is to go to the FLGS and buy a cheap old 1st ed. PHB (he always has a bunch in stock for like $5 a pop), cut the pages out, and bind this into it .

Of course, I'll velo bind the pages back together to keep a spare 1E PHB, too, but that's beside the point

Jeez... THANKS!!! Your good word is much appreciated. I'll have to start picking up the pace on my Monster Manual. I've been working on it at work but I'm going to have to start doing this at home as well.

After that's done, I'll try to complete my variant rulebook (Unearthed Arcana) that has various subraces (plus the half-ogre), rewrites of (N)PC classes from classic Dragon issues and other fun stuff to flesh out my PHB (i.e. clerical spheres of influence and expanded demihuman descriptions). Then I'll finish my Greyhawk conversion (including the gods of greyhawk and additional races/cultural backgrounds for the setting).

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:03 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
Jeez... THANKS!!! Your good word is much appreciated. I'll have to start picking up the pace on my Monster Manual. I've been working on it at work but I'm going to have to start doing this at home as well.

After that's done, I'll try to complete my variant rulebook (Unearthed Arcana) that has various subraces (plus the half-ogre), rewrites of (N)PC classes from classic Dragon issues and other fun stuff to flesh out my PHB (i.e. clerical spheres of influence and expanded demihuman descriptions). Then I'll finish my Greyhawk conversion (including the gods of greyhawk and additional races/cultural backgrounds for the setting).

Truthfully, I'd rather see the Unearthed Arcana first; I can just use my old AD&D monster manuals, or Monsters and Treasure with no problem
I'm not kidding, though. You should really give some thought to stripping the IP out and publishing this as your own original game through the OGL.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:07 pm

The Grey Elf wrote:
I'm not kidding, though. You should really give some thought to stripping the IP out and publishing this as your own original game through the OGL.

The title of this post meantions "heavily housefulled C&C". I guess it's so house ruled that it's become original. That's pretty kewl. 8)

I'm curious though, was this something you began working on before or after you discovered C&C?

Personally, I've been inspired by C&C to replant a lot of rules from AD&D that I may call my house ruled version AC&C.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:11 pm

The Grey Elf wrote:
Truthfully, I'd rather see the Unearthed Arcana first; I can just use my old AD&D monster manuals, or Monsters and Treasure with no problem
I'm not kidding, though. You should really give some thought to stripping the IP out and publishing this as your own original game through the OGL.

I'll post my work-in-progress Unearthed Arcana file to my website (it's in my sig) in a little bit.

If there's anything not included in there (either completed or slated to be worked on) that you'd like to see (and would work with AD&D and C&C) please let me know.