Miniature rules for C&C

Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:26 pm

So, I am new to C&C and I am just reading the rules. I never played it and thus I would like to ask the fans here what they think about my ideas for some simple miniature based combat rules which I would like to introduce in C&C.

Our group are big miniature fans and we want definately to play C&C with miniatures. But there is not even a small system included. So we make our own. This does not matter, because I think that we have some good ideas for this.
Playing surface: Square Tiles from Paizo/WotC and 3D Structures from WW or Fat Dragon
rule 1:

Each Combatant can make 1 movement and 1 combat action per turn (and unlimited freeactions) as he like. he can always interrupt movement to make a combat action and then continue movement
-movement action: moving ft/5 in squares, pay double for difficult terrain
-combat action: roll to hit
-free action: speaking short sentences, drop item, short gestures
rule 2:
ganging up: if several enemies are adjacent to a combatant each enemy gets a to hit bonus of +1. (maximum is +4)
rule3:
Furious attack: a combatant can use this manoevre to get +2 to attack and damage. But it lowers his AC -2 untill his next turn begins
rule4:
Running: you can trade your combat action into a Running action. In this case you get another +1d6 squares to your movement
rule5:

Opportunity attack: in the case an adjacent combatant leaves the combat, his enemy can make an free attack against him. He can make such a free attack once per turn.
rule6:
spears/or similar long weapons can be used at a range of 2 squares.
rule7:
ready weapon (drawing/preparing weapon) is either a movement or a combat action as the user wishes.

These rules are not every rule we want to use, but they represent 80% of those we want to play. We have taken some ideas from the excellent miniature rule system of Savage Worlds, so dont be surprised to find some similarities. (eg the movement/combat - actions)
my question:

do you think that these miniature rules could be against some important rules of C&C we maybe have overseen? Many thanks for your input.

Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:01 pm

If this is what you like for your game, run with it. That's the beauty of the system; you can houserule to your heart's content.

I think that the rules for what a PC can do in a round are clear enough, and don't need any further expansion.

While I enjoy using miniatures in my game (as seskis and morty can attest), I found D&D through d20 and 4/e to have evolved into an overly (and needlessly) complicated form of chess. I took to C&C because it largely got away from all of that.

That being said, though, I go back to my opening statement. The rules don't constrain play of the game. That's the way it should be. I hated nothing more than having to wait while somebody looked up rules after declaring an action. It slowed down the pace of the game, and made it less fun. The game isn't about the rules. Whatever it takes for you to have fun, the game is flexible enough to be able to accommodate that.

Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:04 pm

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
If this is what you like for your game, run with it. That's the beauty of the system; you can houserule to your heart's content.

I think that the rules for what a PC can do in a round are clear enough, and don't need any further expansion.

While I enjoy using miniatures in my game (as seskis and morty can attest), I found D&D through d20 and 4/e to have evolved into an overly (and needlessly) complicated form of chess. I took to C&C because it largely got away from all of that.

That being said, though, I go back to my opening statement. The rules don't constrain play of the game. That's the way it should be. I hated nothing more than having to wait while somebody looked up rules after declaring an action. It slowed down the pace of the game, and made it less fun. The game isn't about the rules. Whatever it takes for you to have fun, the game is flexible enough to be able to accommodate that.

I should add to this that when I got into gaming, we didn't need miniatures to have a good time. C&C takes me back to that. The action happens in your imagination. Enough quoting myself. It's turning into a bad habit.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:09 pm

Your rules sound simple which is key to keepign C&C rules lite. I like them! Personally, I use minis all the time but haven't bothered ruling them so much as what you propose. After reading your post, I think it would be nice to have some simple rules layed out so I'm going to borrow from your post and append to my own house rule a version for my game.

However, the only thing I don't like are AOP. As far as I'm concerned, once you've done your move, your're done! No more attacks alowed.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:32 pm

Attacks of Opportunity are killer in the basic C&C game. C&C was never built to accomidate attacks of Opportunity, so characters getting extra attacks in C&C is big, big benefit.

That being said, if you really look closely at the C&C rules, there are miniature rules in there. If you are familiar with 3rd Edition, then the minautre rules in C&C are extremely simple. Look closely at the C&C combat rules where movement is involved. You see that movement is mentioned as being broken down into 5 foot squares (for the minature fans!).

Though the rules included in the C&C PHB are not as indepth as you have presented, they are indeed there.

~O
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Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:35 pm

Jynx wrote:
Your rules sound simple which is key to keepign C&C rules lite. I like them! Personally, I use minis all the time but haven't bothered ruling them so much as what you propose. After reading your post, I think it would be nice to have some simple rules layed out so I'm going to borrow from your post and append to my own house rule a version for my game.

However, the only thing I don't like are AOP. As far as I'm concerned, once you've done your move, your're done! No more attacks alowed.

Thank you. Be welcome to use them.

Regarding the AoO. I think its quite a simple rule, easy to remember in the heat of the battle, so we have no prob to use it. Additionally it brings a small tactical element into the combat, because you think twice before running away from a combat or running freely through the adjacent squares of several enemies. Its a tradeoff. either you run away and save your skin in time or you run away if you are near death. But then it may be too late because the AoO of your enemy could finish you.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:50 pm

Enpeze wrote:
Thank you. Be welcome to use them.

Regarding the AoO. I think its quite a simple rule, easy to remember in the heat of the battle, so we have no prob to use it. Additionally it brings a small tactical element into the combat, because you think twice before running away from a combat or running freely through the adjacent squares of several enemies. Its a tradeoff. either you run away and save your skin in time or you run away if you are near death. But then it may be too late because the AoO of your enemy could finish you.

I understand, but I prefer to keep it simple and if you've done your attack and it didn't try to make your oponent stay where he is then there is no reason he can't flee, then again there is no reason you can't chase him either!

I just hate it when someone else is invovled in another battle and just because a miniature passes next to his miniature, he gets to swing at him. In my opinion, the character is busy so any foe running past him is free to continue - UNLESS the character wants to divert his attention away from his current foe which then of course leave his character open for a free attack of some sort, or perhaps lessens his own AC by turning his back on his current oponent.

It's just that I remember when I played 3.5 that the players would get all wrapped up in mini movement so much so that it made the game much to much tactical in feel.

From memory, I recall there being rules on retreating and such in the PHB. I have to piece this all together to come to some sort of ruling I like that doens't involve complex AOP rules.

On the flip side, I play in a 2e game where the players bascially pick up their minis at any point and place them anywhere they want without too much in the way of DM dissaproval. This drives me crazy since I think they should follow some rules. The one thing that maddens me even more is when the DM suddenly takes the enemy mini and sais he runs away, without so much as a chance to do anything about it.

There has got to be a middle ground. I'll find it. At least for me !

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:05 am

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
If this is what you like for your game, run with it. That's the beauty of the system; you can houserule to your heart's content.

I think that the rules for what a PC can do in a round are clear enough, and don't need any further expansion.

While I enjoy using miniatures in my game (as seskis and morty can attest), I found D&D through d20 and 4/e to have evolved into an overly (and needlessly) complicated form of chess. I took to C&C because it largely got away from all of that.

That being said, though, I go back to my opening statement. The rules don't constrain play of the game. That's the way it should be. I hated nothing more than having to wait while somebody looked up rules after declaring an action. It slowed down the pace of the game, and made it less fun. The game isn't about the rules. Whatever it takes for you to have fun, the game is flexible enough to be able to accommodate that.

Agreed. Good points all around, IMHO!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:16 am

Someone else did something like this not long ago -- some minor aspects of mini use are in C&C, such as direct line of fire (missiles travel in straight lines) and so forth and so on, but that is too much for me, too. If I use miniatures, I want them to be there for the "ooh" not the "ok, I can move 3 squares and threaten in a semicircle... so, if that thing uses its fast action to charge a sunder, I get to grapple with my AoO and then cleave if he drops." No thanks. It probably plays more fun that it sounds, but it just does not catch my nads in a vice to test it.
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:25 am

serleran wrote:
Someone else did something like this not long ago -- some minor aspects of mini use are in C&C, such as direct line of fire (missiles travel in straight lines) and so forth and so on, but that is too much for me, too. If I use miniatures, I want them to be there for the "ooh" not the "ok, I can move 3 squares and threaten in a semicircle... so, if that thing uses its fast action to charge a sunder, I get to grapple with my AoO and then cleave if he drops." No thanks. It probably plays more fun that it sounds, but it just does not catch my nads in a vice to test it.

Perfectly said!

I prefer the 'ooh' effect as well. It's always more interesting to see a mini on a table that just looks cool rather than an old SORRY pawn or Chess Pawn Piece to mark the monster. The minimal use of rules just makes it feel more usefull other than 'ooh', but I don't take it too seriously. If anyone ever talks about AOP and Mini movement, they better be prepared to have the evil eye cast in their direction followed by perhaps thrown object... soft object of course!

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:15 pm

serleran wrote:
Someone else did something like this not long ago --

Yep, here it is:
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames
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Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:36 pm

There is nothing principally wrong with my rule ideas? No violaton of any essential rule in c&c? (except the general resistance and hesitation in mini usage )

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:50 pm

I see nothing wrong with your minature rules at all. In my opinion, I think Attacks of Opportunity do not work in C&C. I have played in a C&C game where AoO were allowed and they are dominating... kind of. The ability to have another attack is a hge bonus in C&C, particularly at the low levels of exp.

Then again, take a look at disengauging from combat in C&C BTB. There is essentially an AoO there anyways. Just a personal preference with a little bit of experience thrown in.

~O
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Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:44 pm

Omote wrote:
I see nothing wrong with your minature rules at all. In my opinion, I think Attacks of Opportunity do not work in C&C. I have played in a C&C game where AoO were allowed and they are dominating... kind of. The ability to have another attack is a hge bonus in C&C, particularly at the low levels of exp.

Then again, take a look at disengauging from combat in C&C BTB. There is essentially an AoO there anyways. Just a personal preference with a little bit of experience thrown in.

~O

Oh ok. Thank you for your tipp. Then official c&c disengaging in combat is a kind of a more complex variant of AoO rule 5. I will check this.