SIEGE Question

Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:36 pm

I would like to know if this is possible within the SIEGE engine:

Player A (CHA 16 is primary, DEX14 is secondary, bard level 2) tries to distract an oger (HD4, save P) with loud shouts and a thrown beer mug away from the child which hides under a table.

As I see the CK has 3 possibilities to rule this action:

1. he determines this a CHA action and a CL of 4 (level of ogre) and a base target number of 12 (because CHA is primary) So the player has to roll 16 for the CHA trick action. He has a bonus of +2 and his level of another +2, this makes a +4)

2. the ck determines this is a DEX action (beer mug throwing) and the bard has now a base TN of 18+oger level of 4 (because DEX is secondary) . This makes a hefty TN of 22. The bard has now +1 for DEX and +2 for level. this makes a modifier of +3)

3. The ck determines that the oger and not the bard has to make a SIEGE check for Intelligence. The oger has for this a base TN of 18 (because he save on P). But he gets a +4 for his level.

Are these assumptions correct? Are there 3 possibilities to resolve this action?

Another question.

Or is it alternatively possible to let BOTH (the oger and the bard) roll a comparative roll with each a d20? Eg. the CK decides this is DEX trick.

So the bard rolls d20+1 (DEX modifier)+2 (for level)

and the oger roll d20+4 (for level) +6 (because he saves on P and the difference of 12 and 18 is 6)?

Many thanks for your input and help.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:42 pm

First, the assumptions of the Castle Keeper are always correct -- if a player does not agree, they say so, and then move on, arguing about the rule after the game.

The Charisma thing is basically spot on, but I would not require a Dexterity check for the throwing of the beer unless the bard is trying to do something very specific such as bouncing it off the wall, off the table, spinning around the toilet, nothing but net. And then, it would be an attack roll with some severe penalties (remembering that in C&C, a natural 20 does not mean anything.)

Usually, the "active character" makes the check -- there are not, yet (CKG supposedly has them), "opposed rolls" so in this case, typically, the bard would make his Charisma check, and if he succeeds, the ogre is dumbfounded and distracted.

There are actually many, many, many ways to resolve it... some of which do not even require rolls.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:21 pm

serleran wrote:
Usually, the "active character" makes the check -- there are not, yet (CKG supposedly has them), "opposed rolls" ...

Seriously? Opposed rolls?

Guess what's not coming into my game when I pick up the CKG.

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:31 pm

Supposedly (at least it had been discussed in the closed forum,) anyway. Maybe not. Don't know, and I see very few reasons to have them and even fewer moments in game where it would matter. But, if they're there, it might be one of the "views" on how to use the SIEGE Engine.

Technically, every roll in C&C is opposed anyway -- by the hit dice / level or difficulty of the challenge. So, nothing new there at all.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:39 pm

I'm no expert, but I think #1 in your post is best, IMO, FWIW.

I'd say Dex is out b/c it's not like he's throwing it at the ogre, or not as an attack, at least. he could throw the mug anywhere and distract the ogre.

I don't think any of your ideas are wrong, however. But i'd say the first one w/ the CHR check is best.

and if everyone's having fun, that's the real point anyway.

Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:10 pm

Relaxo wrote:
I'm no expert, but I think #1 in your post is best, IMO, FWIW.

I'd say Dex is out b/c it's not like he's throwing it at the ogre, or not as an attack, at least. he could throw the mug anywhere and distract the ogre.

I don't think any of your ideas are wrong, however. But i'd say the first one w/ the CHR check is best.

and if everyone's having fun, that's the real point anyway.

Ok. The problem I have is that if all 3 ideas could be applied, the TNs which define such an action are wildly different.

They range from 14 (3rd variant) if the ogre gets his distraction save to 16 if the CK says its a CHA trick to a hefty 22 if he says its a DEX trick. This are 8 points difference for the same action. Of course it depends on the description of the player which type of attribute the CK choose, but its still a little bit wishi-washi.

Intuitively I would choose neither of the 3 first options. I would choose the comparative roll (d20+bard-level +6 vs. d20+oger-level) which seems the most logical solution to me. But Siege dont (yet) allow this, so I have to stick to the fact that the active part rolls everything, EXCEPT spell and poison etc. saves of course, where the passive part has to roll.

So the queston is why the ogre cannot "save" against the distraction attempt of the bard. This would even have the advantage that the dumbness of ogers (which is represented by P saves and not M) would be included into this save and so generate a TN of 18.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:38 pm

You can do it either way -- if you feel the bard can automatically succeed at distracting to warrant a save on the ogre's behalf, then you let the ogre make the roll. If, however, you think the impetus of persuasion is on the bard, he makes the check...

You can even have both. You can have the bard check to see if he is decent enough as a wanna-be thespian to temporarily attract the ogre, who then, once seeing this amazing performance, has to see if he gets too drawn in like a dimwitted couch potato(e).

The TNs are not "vastly different." They are the same, based on how it resolves. What changes is who is making the roll, and that depends only on how the Castle Keeper wants to resolve it.

Quote:
So the queston is why the ogre cannot "save" against the distraction attempt of the bard. This would even have the advantage that the dumbness of ogers (which is represented by P saves and not M) would be included into this save and so generate a TN of 18.

No one has said the ogre "cannot save" but you're looking at it incorrectly -- before the ogre even needs to save (simply being stupid doesn't mean they believe everything, just because some smarmy player wants them to) the bard has to succeed. The "save" is the bard's attempt -- and, if you want to make the ogre exceptionally retarded, you can deny its HD for the bard's check (which is fully within the way the SIEGE system works.)

The rule simply provides a tool -- it does not say "I can only pound nails." Use it. Once you have, it will become intuitive, and you'll even see other ways to use it. And, also, remember the SIEGE Engine is not great at covering "everything." Some things should be flat percentages, for example.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:43 pm

It's your game, so you can always give the ogre a save if you want to. The SIEGE engine is supposed to open things up so you can try anything, not tie you down because of rules mechanics. If you want to try adjudicating something in a non-BTB manner, that is completely within the spirit of C&C. That said, using the ogre's hit dice as a factor when calculating the target number as you have done goes a long way to take into account the ogre's ability to resist the bard's distraction attempt so that some would argue giving the ogre a separate saving throw is not only redundant, but unfair to the player.

Also, if you don't like the target number you are getting from calculating a SIEGE check, just tweak it. There is nothing magical about the SIEGE formula. For example, if you think the ogre should be more susceptible to distraction by the bard due to its stupid nature, set the challenge level at -2 or -3 instead of using the ogre's hit dice of +4. Or just rule that the bard is successful if he rolls under 60% on a d100 if that is what you think the PC's chances ought to be. As a CK, the rules (including the SIEGE engine) are your bitch, not the other way around!
EDIT: I see serleran posted some similar points while I was typing my response. I strongly suspect he hacked my computer and stole my ideas while I was proof-reading. Mother-...

Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:08 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
It's your game, so you can always give the ogre a save if you want to. The SIEGE engine is supposed to open things up so you can try anything, not tie you down because of rules mechanics. If you want to try adjudicating something in a non-BTB manner, that is completely within the spirit of C&C. That said, using the ogre's hit dice as a factor when calculating the target number as you have done goes a long way to take into account the ogre's ability to resist the bard's distraction attempt so that some would argue giving the ogre a separate saving throw is not only redundant, but unfair to the player.

Also, if you don't like the target number you are getting from calculating a SIEGE check, just tweak it. There is nothing magical about the SIEGE formula. For example, if you think the ogre should be more susceptible to distraction by the bard due to its stupid nature, set the challenge level at -2 or -3 instead of using the ogre's hit dice of +4. Or just rule that the bard is successful if he rolls under 60% on a d100 if that is what you think the PC's chances ought to be. As a CK, the rules (including the SIEGE engine) are your bitch, not the other way around!
EDIT: I see serleran posted some similar points while I was typing my response. I strongly suspect he hacked my computer and stole my ideas while I was proof-reading. Mother-...

thanks for your tipps. I am coming from Savage Worlds, where such mental and agilty stunts and tricks etc. are standard in every combat and extremly in favor to the player (even for novices), so for me the high TNs (rather low propability chances compared to those from Savage Worlds) from c&c Siege engine are still strange and I have to accustom myself to these numbers.

Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:57 am

Buttmonkey wrote:
It's your game, so you can always give the ogre a save if you want to. The SIEGE engine is supposed to open things up so you can try anything, not tie you down because of rules mechanics.

As a CK, the rules (including the SIEGE engine) are your bitch, not the other way around!

I agree with this (as well as the rest of the post) and would only add that however you decide to rule on it, just make sure you stay consistent. Write it down or whatever to make sure that you do it any time the situation comes up. I've got a separate utility that lets me keep all that stuff, as well as other game-related bits, in one place. It's very convenient.

Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:08 pm

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
..however you decide to rule on it, just make sure you stay consistent. Write it down or whatever to make sure that you do it any time the situation comes up. ...

That is a GREAT idea!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:32 am

If I was the CK, I'd probably be a little lenient on the player, especially if he's tying to distract the ogre away from a kid. I would have the bard make an attack roll with the thrown mug. If he hits the ogre, he deals no damage, but distacts ogre sucessfully. If he missed the ogre with the attack roll, I might let him make a CHA check and even possibly give him a +1 to that check for having thrown a mug at the ogre.

Hopefully all works out well!
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HatterMadness · Post by **HatterMadness** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:49 pm

I'm not sure i would even require a Check at all.... i mean depending on why the Ogre is after the kid, it wouldn't be so unusual for him to turn his attention to the Bard who is yelling and throwing stuff. Unless the Ogre has a very specific reason to focus on the kid i would say that this is a matter for RPing not dice rolling.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:07 pm

HatterMadness wrote:
I'm not sure i would even require a Check at all.... i mean depending on why the Ogre is after the kid, it wouldn't be so unusual for him to turn his attention to the Bard who is yelling and throwing stuff. Unless the Ogre has a very specific reason to focus on the kid i would say that this is a matter for RPing not dice rolling.

I guess it depends on how hungry the ogre is.
Seriously, I agree, hoss. It wouldn't be out of line to just allow the distraction to happen, in my opinion.
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cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:23 am

An idea I tend to go by relies on whether or not the creature (or situation, or environ) will be overtly changed by the action of the character. If the ogre would lose hit points, be stunned, lose its action, then require a roll otherwise let the player succeed at the little things. If the encounter is supposed to hinge on certain things (like the ogre needing to catch the boy for whatever nefarious reason) then roll away.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:36 pm

HatterMadness wrote:
I'm not sure i would even require a Check at all.... i mean depending on why the Ogre is after the kid, it wouldn't be so unusual for him to turn his attention to the Bard who is yelling and throwing stuff. Unless the Ogre has a very specific reason to focus on the kid i would say that this is a matter for RPing not dice rolling.

+1 I would probably not even roll, allowing the bard to automatically draw the ogres attention.

If I did make a roll I'd go with option 3, a mental siege check for the ogre, but I would set the TN at 20, (adding the bards level to the ogres TN, 18 for non-prime and 2 for the bards level). So on a roll of 15 or less the ogre foes for the bard, 16 or higher he goes after the kid.
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