Turning undead question

Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:23 pm

When a cleric turns undead (eg. a group of 6 zombies which are approaching) succeds in the turning and rolls a 2 on his d12. Can he attempt to turn the rest of the remaining zombies (4) the next turn? Thanks for your help.

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:31 pm

No. The cleric gets one shot at any given group of undead. Any that are not turned get to eat the cleric's brains.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:31 pm

If he did not fail on a turn attempt for that encounter, he can continue to turn as often as he likes -- when he fails a turning roll, then he can try no more (for that encountered group.)
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Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:58 pm

Well 2 differing opinions. So can he continue to turn the remaining 4 zombies? yes or no? (I guess yes, its logical, but unfortunately no word in the rule for this)

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:22 pm

Ah, the fun of the "rules."

If we want to get all technical about this, we can have all kinds of weirdness....

PHB, page 121, 2nd print, because its the one currently on my desk wrote:
In game terms, turning undead should be considered a special, ranged combat attack.

So, how many give the cleric his BtH and Dexterity modifier to it? Does the cleric have to "roll to hit" before he can make his turning check? I think I'll ignore this part, except for it to mean "situational modifiers, such as not being able to see the undead, may make the turning check more difficult -- use the standard situational modifiers."

PHB, page 121, 2nd print wrote:
If the turn attempt fails, however, the cleric may not attempt to turn that specific group again for the remainder of the combat and one full day has passed.

OK, group of undead... not individual undead, so a single skeleton cannot be turned at all.

same source wrote:
The only exception is that newly arrived creatures of the same type, or in a different group, can be turned.

OK, that makes some more sense. Still can't turn a single skeleton unless you encounter one first, and then you can get the second one.

same source wrote:
Essentially, a cleric has one chance to turn each opponent in a combat or 24 hour period, with each opponent being composed of a group of undead of the same type.

So, that last one clears it all up (except the weird combat rule)... if you fail to turn all of a given undead group, you cannot turn them again for 1 day. If new undead show up, you can get the new guys.

This has changed from the intent I recalled from the development stages. And that means serleran was wrong about the turning rule.
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Enpeze · Post by **Enpeze** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:37 am

Ok. Now I understand the turning rules. A bit tricky and surprising because I was rather your (first) opinion that you can again turn and turn, like a duracell cleric.

Thank you all for clarifying.

For me its important to "understand" the rules. There should be not many rules, but those which are should be very clear and well thought out. While they are sometimes NOT "very clear" they are mostly well thought out, so thats ok.

I understand the philosophy behind c&c as streamlining and KISS (keep it simple stupid). Sometimes I think some unnecessary complexity and strange artefakts from former editions of AD&D/D&D breaks through the mindset of the designers but most of the time they succeed in their design goal. So all in all I am mostly satisfied. I am looking for the most modern and streamlined interpretation of "retro DnD" and c&c seems to be no.1 in this.

Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:07 pm

Enpeze wrote:
I am looking for the most modern and streamlined interpretation of "retro DnD" and c&c seems to be no.1 in this.

I agree there.

I too think the few rules should be sound and easily understood.

and if not, whing it! it's all good to come back to the next section and say " you know waht? I asked about it on the boards and may have run it wrong last time, so going forward, it will be like this...."

I say forge on and don't bog down play by hauling out rule books.

on the other hand, if you're not totally sure, try to make sure the characters aren't killed on a controversial call... that's just good friendliness, IMO.