Troll Lord Games

I have always thought that D&D weapon damage was underrated. Therefore, I have adjusted weapon damage as follows:

1 damage is an insect bite

1d4 is what I figure a character with a strength of 10 can do unarmed

1d6 for characters trained in unarmed combat

C&C damage first column, house rule damage second column

1 converts to 1

1d2 or 1d3 converts to 1d4 fist

1d4 converts to 1d8 dagger

1d6 converts to 1d10 staff

1d8 0r 2d4 converts to 1d12 battle axe

1d10 coverts to 2d8 bastard sword

1d12, 3d4, or 2d6 converts to 3d6 two handed axe

Well, this would certainly be a lethal system. Not an inherently bad thing in a game, but seems to me this would greatly discourage combat, which means you're looking at some alternate form of advancing characters than defeating opponents via arms or magic.
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Also, do not forget that there are many weapons and attacks in C&C that do damage 2d4, 3d4, 2d6, etc.

~O
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Or, just reduce hit points by half.
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Serl's Corner

1. Well, this would certainly be a lethal system. Not an inherently bad thing in a game, but seems to me this would greatly discourage combat, which means you're looking at some alternate form of advancing characters than defeating opponents via arms or magic.

Answer: I used to have 1st level characters role three hit dice, but now I just start them at 2nd level with full hit point. So characters can engage in combat. Of course my house rule is that a natural 20 is 2x maximum damage of the weapon. This gets peoples' attention, but for most monsters I only use only maximum damage of the the weapon.

2. Also, do not forget that there are many weapons and attacks in C&C that do damage 2d4, 3d4, 2d6, etc.

Answer: I use the below damage for simplicity

2d4 converts to 1d12

2d6 or 3d4 converts to 2d8

3. Or, just reduce hit points by half.

Answer: I do that too at higher levels

CKDad wrote:
Well, this would certainly be a lethal system. Not an inherently bad thing in a game, but seems to me this would greatly discourage combat, which means you're looking at some alternate form of advancing characters than defeating opponents via arms or magic.

I simply follow the "1 gold = 1 experience point" rule. I don't remember if this is actually stated anywhere in either the PHB or the M&T. Also, at early levels, trying to get XP by killing monsters will be a rather slow-going process.

lobocastle wrote:
1. Well, this would certainly be a lethal system. Not an inherently bad thing in a game, but seems to me this would greatly discourage combat, which means you're looking at some alternate form of advancing characters than defeating opponents via arms or magic.

Answer: I used to have 1st level characters role three hit dice, but now I just start them at 2nd level with full hit point. So characters can engage in combat. Of course my house rule is that a natural 20 is 2x maximum damage of the weapon. This gets peoples' attention, but for most monsters I only use only maximum damage of the the weapon.

I see. Important context to have when evaluating a combat mechanic!

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're actually goosing up the PCs damage, but not increasing monster damage by the same ratio. Is that correct?
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

CKDad,

1. I see. Important context to have when evaluating a combat mechanic!

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're actually goosing up the PCs damage, but not increasing monster damage by the same ratio. Is that correct?

Answer: I believe a character or monster should get a good reward for rolling a natural 20. I think 2x maximum damage is certainly a reward, but maximum damage is not too shabby. This also stops high level characters from disregarding low hit die monsters. That all be said characters face many more combat rounds throughout a campaign than most monsters. Monsters such as dragons, vampires, and liches can take care of themselves. Important NPCs, I would treat as 2x maximum damage. I would also say that a CK should use discretion based upon the gaming group.

Maximum damage on a critical has worked really well in my C&C games. As for beefing up weapon damage, I'd double the dice rolled and then add modifiers:

1d3 becomes 2d3, 1d4 becomes 2d4, 2d4 becomes 4d4 and so on.

By rolling multiple dice you'll tend to do mid-range damage more often than if you roll a single die (the good ol' Bell Curve effect). At the same time your average damage will double, so it'll make combat nastier.
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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/dnd3e/cnc.htm

Looks like it could be a deadly system, starting PCs a 2nd level with max hit points takes care of some of this, but still I think combat would be more lethal with this system.

Is this just for weapons and monsters using weapons, or does it apply to things like claw and bite attacks as well?
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1. Maximum damage on a critical has worked really well in my C&C games. As for beefing up weapon damage, I'd double the dice rolled and then add modifiers: 1d3 becomes 2d3, 1d4 becomes 2d4, 2d4 becomes 4d4 and so on.

Answer: Some good thoughts here, but I would have an issue with 2d12, that's more damage than i am looking for. What I might do is change the damage by adding 1d4 for all weapons that do 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8 (2d4) damage and add 1d6 to weapons that do 1d10 or 1d12 (2d6, 3d4) damage.

2. Looks like it could be a deadly system, starting PCs a 2nd level with max hit points takes care of some of this, but still I think combat would be more lethal with this system.

Is this just for weapons and monsters using weapons, or does it apply to things like claw and bite attacks as well?

Answer: I do like combat to be more lethal than presented in C&C or D&D. If a 15th level fighter faces 20 Orcs in my campaign, the Player character is worried not laughing. What I do is if I recognize a monster's weapon I use the same weapon damage for monsters, like an Orc with a battle axe would use 1d12. If I am in a hurry I either add +1 or +2 to damage or a 1d4. As far a natural attacks go I take those on a case by case basis. Some monsters are just plain deadly as is so I do not make adjustments. Where I may have given the PCs an edge due to an increase in weapon damage; I adjust those monster attacks with either a +1 or +2 or add 1d4.

lobocastle wrote:
Answer: Some good thoughts here, but I would have an issue with 2d12, that's more damage than i am looking for. What I might do is change the damage by adding 1d4 for all weapons that do 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8 (2d4) damage and add 1d6 to weapons that do 1d10 or 1d12 (2d6, 3d4) damage.

2d12 does an average of 13 pts of damage so it is pretty nasty. Maybe it'd be easier to group weapons into five types, scale back the damage a bit and run from there:
Unarmed strikes: 1d4 damage.
Tiny weapons: daggers, darts, gauntlets, brass knuckles, etc which would now do 1d6 damage (an average of 3.5 pts of damage). Also used for monk unarmed strikes from levels 1-4.
Small weapons: short swords, throwing axes, sling bullets, short bows, throwing hammers, horsman's flails, maces and picks, etc which would now do 1d6+2 damage (an average of 5.5 pts of damage). Also used for monk unarmed strikes from levels 5-8.
Medium weapons: longswords, scimitars, short spears, longbows, light crossbows, most polearms (which would give the added benefit of reach), warhammers, footman's flails, maces and picks, etc which would now do 1d6+4 damage (an average of 7.5 pts of damage). Also used for monk unarmed strikes from levels 9-12.
Large weapons: two-handed swords, heavy crossbows, great axes, bardiches, mauls, etc which would now do 1d6+6 damage (an average of 9.5 pts of damage). Also used for monk unarmed strikes from levels 13+.

The bastard sword (which falls between a medium and large weapon) would do 1d6+4 when used 1-handed or 1d6+6 when used 2-handed.

Whaddaya think?
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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/dnd3e/cnc.htm

Lobocastle,

I think your last post answered the core questions I was asking but didn't articulate well yesterday. It's important to understand the goal behind a proposed rule in order to evaluate it - what you're really asking is "I want my games to reflect goal X, so I want to change rule Y to make C&C work that way. Does what I'm proposing help me do that?"

Since your goal is increasing combat lethality, this certainly moves you down that trail, especially if you give monsters the same level of benefits. The only gotcha is that with more lethal combat on both sides of the equation, PCs are going to be less likely to enter into combat in the first place (or at least to be much smarter about how and when they do so). As sieg pointed out, there's many alternative ways to give experience besides just monster/NPC kills, so you can offset any loss from reduced combat.

As long as all that works for you & your group, sounds like this is a good place to start.
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

csperkins1970

You have some good thoughts on weapon damage. I like your five categories of weapon damage. I agree with the unarmed strikes being 1d4 damage. I also like the tiny weapons damage of 1d6 damage (except the dagger). I will also use 1d6 for monk unarmed strike damage from levels 1-4.

I am going to use the following weapon house rule:

Unarmed strikes: 1d4 damage.

Under 1d4 convert to 1d6, plus monk unarmed strike damage from levels 1-4

1d4 add 1d4

1d6 add 1d4

1d8 add 1d4

1d10 add 1d4

1d12 add 1d4

I am also going to use the natural 20 rule of just maximum weapon damage and not double maximum weapon damage. I will use both these rules for characters, NPCs, and monsters (where practical).

lobocastle,

Have you considered using dice penetration as depicted in HMB? Easy rule to add since basically all that it means is anytime a max number is rolled on a damage die you reroll that die, subtract one and add to the first roll. if a second max result is rolled you roll the die a third time subtract one and add the total, rinse, repeat.

Critical hits roll double damage dice and so double the chance for a dice explosion.

I would consider starting players off with max hp +10 if you decide to use this rule though as it will make a lucky swing deadly.
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CKDad,

1. I think your last post answered the core questions I was asking but didn't articulate well yesterday.

Answer: I believe that you articulated the issues well.

2. It's important to understand the goal behind a proposed rule in order to evaluate it - what you're really asking is "I want my games to reflect goal X, so I want to change rule Y to make C&C work that way. Does what I'm proposing help me do that?"

Answer: Great point! Those questions break the process down well. Yes, I want combat more lethal for all concerned, but I also want to see a good hard tactical fight!

3. As Sieg pointed out, there's many alternative ways to give experience besides just monster/NPC kills, so you can offset any loss from reduced combat.

Answer: Although I am a power gamer, I do believe in more than just combat. Experience should be given for in character role play, brave deeds, clever tricks, and teamwork.

Concobar.

1. Have you considered using dice penetration as depicted in HMB?

Answer: No, I had to look up HMB (HackMaster). Savage World RPG uses this technique and I like Savage World RPG a lot, but I do not believe this technique will adept well to D&D or C&C. It would certainly be lethal though. Your idea about maximum hit points plus 10 sounds interesting though.

Lobocastle - no worries! Let us know how it works out, and what tweaks if any you eventually make!
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

I use the dice penetration/exploding dice and don't use criticals on a 20.

The dice 'explosion' works very well and makes those 2d4 pole arms worth using again. Also if you use 'broad sword' to simulate heavy sabers, the 2d4 with exploding dice works very well.

Keeps the game from becoming a prolonged slugfest ala 1 E and adds some excitement and danger too.