Race based primes

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:55 pm

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, I didn't have much luck finding anything.

A what if question.

What if a characters primes were based on race rather than class? Dwarves, Elves. Halflings, Gnomes and 1/2 Orcs would still have two, one fixed and one chosen by the player, 1/2 Elves would have 2, but are free to place them anywhere, humans still have three, and are free to put them where they choose.

Dwarf CON

Elf DEX

Halfling CHA

1/2 Orc STR

Gnome INT

I see this as giving more flexability to character creation, and also lend to the racial stereotypes.

Any thoughts? Things I'm not seeing.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:00 pm

I have experimented with this using a race-as-class system. I think it would work well, particularly in reinforcing certain archtypes. Though it seem in this case that class would no longer have a prime associated with it. I think it would fine, but it seems like most races would have a prime attribute where they already get a bonus. Perhaps that makes that attribute too focused upon.

~O
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:14 am

My question is this, and maybe I'm missing the forest for the trees - would these totally repace the class primes? If so, that's fine, but then I start wondering to things like a dwarven ranger, who would be totally screwed with all his class abilities. It would definitely lend itself to the old sterotypes!
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:53 pm

The race prime would replace class primes.

As to the dwarven ranger, he would be no more screwed being locked into having a racial prime (CON) than a class prime (STR). most of his abilities are either (WIS) or (DEX) based. So either way 1/2 of his abilities are not going to be prime.

And yes this does reinforce racial sterotypes, whuch is part of my thinking behind this.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:05 pm

Maliki wrote:
The race prime would replace class primes.

As to the dwarven ranger, he would be no more screwed being locked into having a racial prime (CON) than a class prime (STR). most of his abilities are either (WIS) or (DEX) based. So either way 1/2 of his abilities are not going to be prime.

And yes this does reinforce racial sterotypes, whuch is part of my thinking behind this.

Okay, the ranger is a bad example...a ranger is pretty much screwed anyway, unless you play a multi-prime race.

Allow me to change my example to a dwarven rogue. At least by having to take his class Prime (Dex), he has at least some class abilities he isn't rolling against an 18 for.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:09 pm

This concept has come up before. That being said, there are obvious disadvantages to enforcing race stereotypes. This methodology pretty well locks a given race into a narrow set of class combinations.

Speaking as one who had, indeed, attempted to play a Dwarven ranger, the most obvious of the limitations has been pointed out.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:39 pm

Indeed. The ranger scenario comes into play no matter what method you're using. I think, instead of having primes attached to race, that racial minimums and maximums (that was brought up in another thread) would be more appropriate - they still have the flavor attached without being too confining. Just my two cents.
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lobocastle · Post by **lobocastle** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Maliki,

This is an interesting topic. I have gone back and forth with the issue of fantasy races and classes. I have seen where 3ed D&D opened up the flood gates and I supported them at the time. Now that I have been reading a lot of fantasy, I think that the fantasy races are known for their unique abilities and therefore should have designated primes and limited classes to choose from. I have also been in favor of the old D&D make the fantasy race a class.

Joe

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:48 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Indeed. The ranger scenario comes into play no matter what method you're using. I think, instead of having primes attached to race, that racial minimums and maximums (that was brought up in another thread) would be more appropriate - they still have the flavor attached without being too confining. Just my two cents.

Now, bear in mind, I'm one for removing the restriction on locking the class prime in place. This leaves room for variant types of classes, not to mention a means of gearing a class more towards the cultural and psychological leanings of a given race.

Consider this. If the class doesn't quite fit a given race due to the concept here being discussed about fixed race primes, tweak the class a bit.

A dwarven ranger, for example, isn't necessarily going to have the same sort of training as the typical ranger. Their sphere of influence, ie, underground, is quite a bit different. Ask anyone who's ever been caving?

Perhaps the Tracking could be more mystical or auditory and be based off rock vibration or some sort of sense of earth power mastery? The attribute check could move to some other, more relevant, ability? Perhaps trying to sense the flow of some creatures passage through a rock terrain requires a Herculean constitutional endurance trial?

Don't let the classes limit you.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:26 pm

lobocastle wrote:
Maliki,

This is an interesting topic. I have gone back and forth with the issue of fantasy races and classes. I have seen where 3ed D&D opened up the flood gates and I supported them at the time. Now that I have been reading a lot of fantasy, I think that the fantasy races are known for their unique abilities and therefore should have designated primes and limited classes to choose from. I have also been in favor of the old D&D make the fantasy race a class.

Joe

This is my train of thought as well, I have a pretty clear picture of what makes and elf an elf, a dwarf a dwarf, etc. So I have a hard time with things like the following

A dwarf rogue with DEX and INT as primes

Verses a

Elf fighter with STR and WON as primes

Here we have a race noted for its toughness and even having a +1 bonus to CON, failing CON checks at a dismal pace, while the frailest race is making them with ease.

And on the flip side, the short stock dwarf is making his DEX saves/checks while the agile and graceful elf is failing them.

I guess I see race as more of an archtype than class. I have a harder time with dwarves failing CON checks and Elves failing DEX checks, than I would a fighter failing a STR check or a Barbarian failing a CON check.

The adjustments to each races ability scores are fine, but are easily overshadowed by primes.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:30 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Now, bear in mind, I'm one for removing the restriction on locking the class prime in place. This leaves room for variant types of classes, not to mention a means of gearing a class more towards the cultural and psychological leanings of a given race.

So this woud mean the demi-humans still get 2 primes, Humans 3 but are free to place them wherever they like? It would open up and allow any race to be any class.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:16 pm

Maliki wrote:
So this woud mean the demi-humans still get 2 primes, Humans 3 but are free to place them wherever they like? It would open up and allow any race to be any class.

Exactly. And my suggestions on the rest of my post are means by which these variations could make sense.

In fact, I had a thought on the idea of the elf fighter, with a charisma prime, altering the descriptive flavor of how the fighters combat dominance works.

With combat dominance, the fighter essentially can sense the flow of combat to be able to deal with rank and file opposition. With an elven charisma focus it could be more about intimidating the masses with the raw force of innate elven power. Much like the inner light of the elves of the Eldar in the Lord of the Rings books.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:55 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Now, bear in mind, I'm one for removing the restriction on locking the class prime in place. This leaves room for variant types of classes, not to mention a means of gearing a class more towards the cultural and psychological leanings of a given race.

Consider this. If the class doesn't quite fit a given race due to the concept here being discussed about fixed race primes, tweak the class a bit.

A dwarven ranger, for example, isn't necessarily going to have the same sort of training as the typical ranger. Their sphere of influence, ie, underground, is quite a bit different. Ask anyone who's ever been caving?

Perhaps the Tracking could be more mystical or auditory and be based off rock vibration or some sort of sense of earth power mastery? The attribute check could move to some other, more relevant, ability? Perhaps trying to sense the flow of some creatures passage through a rock terrain requires a Herculean constitutional endurance trial?

Don't let the classes limit you.

I've always thought of doing things like this, Peter, as I feel not every class should play the same, considering the racial background, how they got their training, etc. I don't know if it's something I want to put to paper or not, though, as I don't want to get too confining (as putting things in writing seems to do sometimes ).
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:06 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
I've always thought of doing things like this, Peter, as I feel not every class should play the same, considering the racial background, how they got their training, etc. I don't know if it's something I want to put to paper or not, though, as I don't want to get too confining (as putting things in writing seems to do sometimes ).

Well, there's no reason you'd necessarily need to write it down on a sheet of paper. Instead, just watch how the people in your group play and tailor things to fit various players and their characters. That way, whatever variation is only introduced on one players sheet. Makes a character a bit more unique that way.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:26 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, there's no reason you'd necessarily need to write it down on a sheet of paper. Instead, just watch how the people in your group play and tailor things to fit various players and their characters. That way, whatever variation is only introduced on one players sheet. Makes a character a bit more unique that way.

That's true. This sounds like something I'll be talking to my players about, to see if they have any input on as well.
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