Wuz up everyone. I'm a CnC newbie, just got the PHB and M&T about two weeks ago, and I am really impressed by it. I have played DnD 3.0-3.5 since it came out but recently found myself really dissatisfied with many things about it.
1. Too many rules (its just a game, I wanna have fun not learn calculus.)
2. Long character creation times (a serious put off to new players that have never roleplayed before.)
3. Book bloat (gotta take some of the blame for this, no one made me buy them.)
4. Excessive everything syndrome (Feats, PrC's, Base classes, Spells, Weapons, Actions, Conditions etc.)
5. And More... (Just don't feel like listing everything.)
Anyway, I was so impressed I bought two more PHB's for my little brothers. I am starting a new campaign Friday with three people from work(none of them have ever roleplayed) and two 3E veterans. I came up with a simple skill system and was wondering if I could get some feedback. So here it goes.
Every PC recieves 3+(Int mod) in slots and every skill costs one slot to learn. Having a particular skill allows a check to be made with the corresponding attribute with a bonus equal to half the characters level, rounded down(min +1). These checks are prime or non-prime dependent upon whether the attribute used is or isn't.
I have paired down the skill list in 3E to nine main skills:
1. Athletics(covers balance, acrobatics, lifting,climbing,swimming etc.)
2. Craft(any)
3. Gather Information
4. Knowledge(any)
5. Perception(includes listen, spot, search etc.)
6. Profesion(any)
7. Stealth(move silently, hide in shadows, sleight of hand, etc.)
8. Survival(track, direction sense, hunt,forage etc.)
9. Speak Language(could possibly be subsumed in knowledge.)
I have also ruled that no PC can have more than one(maybe two) profession skills. I figure you couldn't have devoted yourself to more than that and gained the abilities of a class. So what do you guys think?
Neewbie looking for a skill system critique
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Ghost_Face
- Mist Elf
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:00 am
I think I might group things like you have. As for the check I allow them full levels to it and I allow them to do any check involving a skill they know to be done as if they have a Prime in the related stat, whether they do or not.
After all, the Prime is a abstract method of showing training, or natural talent, in ability and related skills/checks. Since I use a defined skill system all defined skills are made with the Prime TN of 12.
After all, the Prime is a abstract method of showing training, or natural talent, in ability and related skills/checks. Since I use a defined skill system all defined skills are made with the Prime TN of 12.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sorry! Forgot to say, "Welcome to the Crusade!"
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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csperkins1970
- Ulthal
- Posts: 569
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Staten Island, NY
- Contact:
I'd pair it down even more:
1] Craft: All craft skills involve the creation of a functional (or consumable) item from raw materials. Skilled craftsmen typically learn their skills as apprentices to master craftsmen. Craft skills include (but are not limited to): armorsmith, blacksmith, bookbinder, bowyer/fletcher, brewer, carpenter, cart/wheelwright, cobbler, cook/baker, jeweler/lapidary, mason, siege engineer, shipwright, tailor/weaver, tanner/leatherworker, and weaponsmith.
2] Profession: Profession skills allow a character to earn a living through the specialized knowledge and techniques of their chosen vocation. In general a character with a background profession is assumed to have left their past profession behind in order to take up a career as a professional adventurer, mercenary, agent of their church, etc.
Some professions that characters may choose from include: animal handler, artist, butcher, clerk, farmer, fisher, gambler, healer/barber, herbalist, hostler/barkeep, hunter, miner/collier, painter/limner, sailor, scribe, trader/barterer, trapper, etc.
These profession skills would allow the character to bring their professional knowledge to bear, where appropriate, or even ply their trade once they have settled down. Profession skill checks are usually wisdom checks though, at times, may involve other ability scores (as the situation warrants).
3] Knowledge: Knowledge skills reflect the interests, studies and/or upbringing of the player character. Knowledge skills are limited in their scope and are varied in their application. Some, such as knowledge (etiquette) or a knowledge (chosen language), may aid in social situations while others may help characters identify items, map locations or the type of mushroom that the poisoned halfling thief just consumed.
Knowledge checks are typically intelligence checks, though successful use of a knowledge skill may aid other skill checks (i.e. a successful knowledge (etiquette) check may grant a +2 bonus to a characters charisma check while at court or a knowledge (nature) check may grant a +2 bonus to characters wisdom check to determine direction or to a rangers survival check).
4] Perform: A skilled performer is valued by commoners and highborn alike for their ability to provide a diversion from the cares and woes of daily life. Characters must choose a type of performance in which they are skilled: acting, buffoonery, dancing, oratory, play (instrument), singing, etc. Bards, on the other hand, begin play skilled in all manner of performance arts.
A character may make a perform skill check (usually a charisma check, though dancing and playing an instrument require dexterity checks) in order to earn a few copper coins (perhaps silver, if the audience is particularly wealthy) or earn their keep at an inn (with modifiers and other considerations being worked out by the DM).
If the perform skill is used to entertain ones hosts or other, non-hostile, NPCs a successful check may positively influence the audiences reaction to the performer (giving the performer a +2 bonus to charisma checks).
Why ditch the others?
1] Athletics: covered by attributes checks, primes and class abilities
2] Gather Information: cover by good roleplaying or by CHA, INT or WIS checks (depending on how the character goes about gathering the info).
3] Perception: covered by attribute checks, primes and class abilities
4] Stealth: covered by class abilities or attribute checks (without level bonuses)
5] Survival: covered by class abilities or attribute checks. You could also fold this into Knowledge (nature) or Profession (hunter) or (mountaineer) or (guide).
6] Speak Language: You can fold this into Knowledge skills.
1] Craft: All craft skills involve the creation of a functional (or consumable) item from raw materials. Skilled craftsmen typically learn their skills as apprentices to master craftsmen. Craft skills include (but are not limited to): armorsmith, blacksmith, bookbinder, bowyer/fletcher, brewer, carpenter, cart/wheelwright, cobbler, cook/baker, jeweler/lapidary, mason, siege engineer, shipwright, tailor/weaver, tanner/leatherworker, and weaponsmith.
2] Profession: Profession skills allow a character to earn a living through the specialized knowledge and techniques of their chosen vocation. In general a character with a background profession is assumed to have left their past profession behind in order to take up a career as a professional adventurer, mercenary, agent of their church, etc.
Some professions that characters may choose from include: animal handler, artist, butcher, clerk, farmer, fisher, gambler, healer/barber, herbalist, hostler/barkeep, hunter, miner/collier, painter/limner, sailor, scribe, trader/barterer, trapper, etc.
These profession skills would allow the character to bring their professional knowledge to bear, where appropriate, or even ply their trade once they have settled down. Profession skill checks are usually wisdom checks though, at times, may involve other ability scores (as the situation warrants).
3] Knowledge: Knowledge skills reflect the interests, studies and/or upbringing of the player character. Knowledge skills are limited in their scope and are varied in their application. Some, such as knowledge (etiquette) or a knowledge (chosen language), may aid in social situations while others may help characters identify items, map locations or the type of mushroom that the poisoned halfling thief just consumed.
Knowledge checks are typically intelligence checks, though successful use of a knowledge skill may aid other skill checks (i.e. a successful knowledge (etiquette) check may grant a +2 bonus to a characters charisma check while at court or a knowledge (nature) check may grant a +2 bonus to characters wisdom check to determine direction or to a rangers survival check).
4] Perform: A skilled performer is valued by commoners and highborn alike for their ability to provide a diversion from the cares and woes of daily life. Characters must choose a type of performance in which they are skilled: acting, buffoonery, dancing, oratory, play (instrument), singing, etc. Bards, on the other hand, begin play skilled in all manner of performance arts.
A character may make a perform skill check (usually a charisma check, though dancing and playing an instrument require dexterity checks) in order to earn a few copper coins (perhaps silver, if the audience is particularly wealthy) or earn their keep at an inn (with modifiers and other considerations being worked out by the DM).
If the perform skill is used to entertain ones hosts or other, non-hostile, NPCs a successful check may positively influence the audiences reaction to the performer (giving the performer a +2 bonus to charisma checks).
Why ditch the others?
1] Athletics: covered by attributes checks, primes and class abilities
2] Gather Information: cover by good roleplaying or by CHA, INT or WIS checks (depending on how the character goes about gathering the info).
3] Perception: covered by attribute checks, primes and class abilities
4] Stealth: covered by class abilities or attribute checks (without level bonuses)
5] Survival: covered by class abilities or attribute checks. You could also fold this into Knowledge (nature) or Profession (hunter) or (mountaineer) or (guide).
6] Speak Language: You can fold this into Knowledge skills.
I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am... a god.
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Ghost_Face
- Mist Elf
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:00 am
I thought I'd throw some reasoning out for the decisions I made with the skill system.
The whole 1/2 level added and prime still dependent on whether the attribute was or wasn't.
Why?
1. So that those skills that infringed upon another characters abilities would never reach the same levels of success.
2. So that a character could fail at something or not be present in a group and certain things could still be accomplished if another pc had the skill.
Now I'm wondering if just using either half-level and prime or non-prime and full-level might be better options.
The Actual Skills:
1. Athletics: Because it allows a farmboy turned wizard who can swim, run etc. reasonably well without str, dex or con having to be primes. Using
the above skill system a fighter, ranger, barbarian etc that is primed and has his highest attributes in those abilities will still wipe the floor with him, but he won't drown trying to swim across slightly choppy water.
2.Gather information: I Look at this skill as more being able to pick up tid-bits of conversation, gossip and such outside of directly interacting with a person. Sort of like sitting in a bar and overhearing something a person says. 1/2 luck and 1/2 perception.
3. Perception and Stealth: basically the same reasons as Athletics.
4. Survival and Speak Language: Totally agree here. Thanks!
The whole 1/2 level added and prime still dependent on whether the attribute was or wasn't.
Why?
1. So that those skills that infringed upon another characters abilities would never reach the same levels of success.
2. So that a character could fail at something or not be present in a group and certain things could still be accomplished if another pc had the skill.
Now I'm wondering if just using either half-level and prime or non-prime and full-level might be better options.
The Actual Skills:
1. Athletics: Because it allows a farmboy turned wizard who can swim, run etc. reasonably well without str, dex or con having to be primes. Using
the above skill system a fighter, ranger, barbarian etc that is primed and has his highest attributes in those abilities will still wipe the floor with him, but he won't drown trying to swim across slightly choppy water.
2.Gather information: I Look at this skill as more being able to pick up tid-bits of conversation, gossip and such outside of directly interacting with a person. Sort of like sitting in a bar and overhearing something a person says. 1/2 luck and 1/2 perception.
3. Perception and Stealth: basically the same reasons as Athletics.
4. Survival and Speak Language: Totally agree here. Thanks!
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csperkins1970
- Ulthal
- Posts: 569
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Staten Island, NY
- Contact:
All reasonable arguments but take this into consideration (using the 4 broad categories listed above):
Swimming could fall under Profession (sailor) or (fisherman)
Running should really just come down to CON or could fall under Profession (courier)
Climbing could be covered by Profession (mountaineer)
Gather Information could easily be rolled into Knowledge (etiquette) of some sort, whether it be a streetwise etiquette or courtly etiquette. These could help the character with their WIS, INT or CHA rolls.
Overall, I guess there are a LOT of ways of tackling skills and it comes down to personal preference. I just prefer borader categories... but I'm wacky that way.
Good luck with your game.
Swimming could fall under Profession (sailor) or (fisherman)
Running should really just come down to CON or could fall under Profession (courier)
Climbing could be covered by Profession (mountaineer)
Gather Information could easily be rolled into Knowledge (etiquette) of some sort, whether it be a streetwise etiquette or courtly etiquette. These could help the character with their WIS, INT or CHA rolls.
Overall, I guess there are a LOT of ways of tackling skills and it comes down to personal preference. I just prefer borader categories... but I'm wacky that way.
Good luck with your game.
I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am... a god.