Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom, ooh my!

[mmtbb]

It seems that every system's description of these 3 attributes overlap in different areas. They likewise have a little different idea of what each of these attributes cover. In C&C some of the same discription for Intelligence overlaps D&Ds description for wisdom. Some of D&D's desprition of Charisma over laps those of C&Cs Wisdom. So it isn't completely vague, an example of this would be willpower. Willpower is related to your Wisdom in D&D. It is releated to Charisma in C&C.

What are your takes on this? Have any of you had dilemmas differenciating between these in your games?

[gideon_thorne]

Not really. IMHO, Charisma is force of personality, and Wisdom is insight. I don't see any difficulty in differentiating between the two.
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Peter Bradley

[serleran]

I have not had any difficulty differentiating them. However, I also use a slightly different explanation:

Strength

Strength measures a characters physical strength, both in actual application and in potential use; for example, if a character should require knowing whether he could lift something, Strength would play its role. Likewise, when a character engages in a contest of brute ability, such as arm wrestling or bashing doors, Strength is applied. This attribute aids in all manner of purely physical might and adds to damage inflicted in melee and with certain muscle-activated weapons such as compound bows or axes.

Dexterity

Dexterity governs the physical agility, accuracy, speed, and coordination a character has, or lacks. It also aids a character in avoiding physical damage as well adding to both Armor Class and initiative both more fully detailed in the COMBAT chapter. Checks against Dexterity are generally those of a speed or precision nature, such as avoiding the spray of a flamethrower or being able to move quietly. Dexterity also modifies a characters chance of success at ranged combat, such as firing a pistol or throwing a dagger.

Constitution

Constitution measures a characters stamina, endurance, fitness, and other bodily structures such as metabolism and general well-being. It is primarily used for the resistance to damage and other physical effects such as poison, radiation, and disease. A very high score for Constitution grants additional Hit Points, a concept more fully detailed in the COMBAT [Character Mortality] chapter.

Intelligence

Intelligence is a means to estimate the full spectrum of mental agility, from deduction (logic) to retention, encompassing every possible activity the mind can perform based on facts or theory. This attribute is used any time a character would be subjected to a test of the mind: any instance when a character could know something, research, create or deduce an invention for example, would be a matter of Intelligence.

Wisdom

Wisdom is, on the surface, similar to Intelligence but it is much more akin to emotions than thinking; therefore, Wisdom is primarily used for such things as determining whether a lie is told or whether one can be fooled easily. Many mutations that specifically target the mind, such as all telepathic abilities, will be resisted by Wisdom.

Charisma

Charisma is an abstraction of charm, appearance, grace, and general likability, including that to convince another to your way of thinking, or to lead. Any social or personal interaction will result in Charisma being used.
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Serl's Corner

[Relaxo]

Since 3e Charisma certainly has been feeling the love.

In 2e (IMO) it seemed like a throwaway... I rolled three 16s, a 14, 13 and a 7... ok.. 7 CHR, obviously... regardless of class (Bard being an obvious exception).

At first I was thrown by C&C using CHR for death saves, but I suppose if it's your force of will as well as social grace and such, it makes sense.

[mmtbb]

Another example: some systems argue that Leadership and Persuasion usually are not a product of Charisma, but of intelligence and wisdom put together. Understanding what others want (intelligence) and insight into there underlying needs (wisdom). If you know these things, you know what to say to manipulate their view.

At least there are one or two things that each system agrees on for each ability. From there you can make it fit your own campaign, right?

[serleran]

The thing is that the attributes are purposefully abstract and vague. One could likely make a convincing argument that the only needed attribute, if at all, would be one to cover Knowledge -- from it, one could do anything. Need to move a boulder? It is not a purely brutish thing, if one knows how to apply leverage. Need to wriggle free of rope bondage? No problem if one knows how... so, technically, Intelligence trumps all of the attributes, according to how one wants to let it happen.... C&C does not take that approach, allowing for slightly more minute aspects to have their own conditional qualifiers. But, yes... you can certainly do whatever you like. Your money = your game.
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Serl's Corner

[mmtbb]

I understand what your saying. However, I purposely used leadership and persuasion because they required nothing more than the mind. If you are weak but know how to use leverage, it won't matter if you don't have the rock and pole needed to create leverage. Anyway, I mean no harm and am not trying to argue. I just find that strength, constitution and dexterity are much easier to differentiate than the more abstract abilities.

[Treebore]

mmtbb wrote:
I understand what your saying. However, I purposely used leadership and persuasion because they required nothing more than the mind. If you are weak but know how to use leverage, it won't matter if you don't have the rock and pole needed to create leverage. Anyway, I mean no harm and am not trying to argue. I just find that strength, constitution and dexterity are much easier to differensiate than the more abstract abilities.

I found just thinking about it, prompted by views expressed int his thread and similar, and coming up with your own understanding of what they encompass makes it easier to judge.

I read the definitions given in the C&C PH, and decided I could see the directions they come from. Now I just wish the spell save determinations were made using the same definitions.
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[Fiffergrund]

I read it thusly:

The descriptions provided are meant to get the reader's thoughts tending in a certain direction.

In practice, however, the CK and players should choose the most applicable attribute for the situation at hand. The descriptions give the guidelines to begin, and the situation itself fills in the blanks.

If there's a fine line somewhere between INT and WIS, pick one. It doesn't really matter as long as you're consistent.
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He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[koralas]

Ah, going into the way back machine, and the way my groups have always looked at it...

Intelligence - What you know (i.e. book smarts)

Wisdom - How you apply what you know (i.e. street smarts)

Charisma - How others react to you (i.e. force of personality, leadership, etc.)

Looking through the prism of history, one could look at Adolf Hitler, a man of high intelligence, average to below average wisdom, and very high charisma. It is documented that Hitler had an IQ of 141, and no one can argue that he put together a masterful (though demented) plan of conquest. However, he acted unwisely in many aspects in waging his war. Namely attacking the Soviet Union to early, trying to fight on two fronts, abandoning certain campaigns when they were on the verge of success, ignoring the pleas of his cabinet when things started to go south, etc. Yet undeniably, he is one of the most charismatic leaders of the 20th century. His ability to command a crowd, and rally people to his cause is legendary. Unfortunately he was also a monster wreaking death and destruction. Still, few know that he ranks third amongst the monsters of death, Mao Zedong, Stalin, and then Hitler...

[koralas]

mmtbb wrote:
Another example: some systems argue that Leadership and Persuasion usually are not a product of Charisma, but of intelligence and wisdom put together. Understanding what others want (intelligence) and insight into there underlying needs (wisdom). If you know these things, you know what to say to manipulate their view.

Ah, but we know that people want money, and we know they need it for food, shelter, luxury, etc. But knowing that doesn't mean you could wave a million dollars in front of someone to get them to do what you want...

Further, being able to manipulate someone is quite a different thing than being able to persuade someone. But to enact such manipulation to get someone to do something they normally wouldn't, even with external enticements, requires a great force of personality.

Think of it almost as peer pressure. Your friend (or supposed friend) wants you to do something you know you shouldn't. At then end, if you do it, you get some sort of satisfying payback, such as eating a candy bar he is telling you to steal. You initially know it is wrong and don't do it, but through constant badgering, bullying, or cajoling, you finally give in. The payback is the same, you gulp down the chocolate. But you didn't do it for the chocolate, you did it because your friend exerted his dominance over you. You know it is wrong (Int), you believed you shouldn't do it (Wis), but you gave in because his force of personality (Cha) wore you down.

So in the game I would require the "friend" to make a Cha test, with the test modified by the higher of your Wis or Cha modifiers. Why either/or, because your belief in doing the right thing may over ride his attempts at persuasion, while you could also resist based on your own sense of self, your own force of personality prevailed against his attempts at assailing it.

[Lord Dynel]

Intelligence is having knowledge, Wisdom is knowing what to do with that knowledge, and Charisma is looking good doing it.
Seriously, what others have said pretty much echoes my feelings, especially Peter's comments early on (post #2). In a word, Intelligence is just that - knowledge. Wisdom is insight. To me, charisma (force of personality, though physical features and/or leadership potential) is a different beast than these two because I think it's a bit of both sides of the mental/physical dichotomy, yet not wholly associated with either one. I don't consider it a "mental" attribute as I do the other two (and as it's been grouped lately), but at the same time it's not physical - yet it has some physical relation to it.

Just my two cents.
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