useless weapon

doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:31 pm

Quote:
I have issues with the bastard sword in C&C as well. I think the 3.5 method is sort of overkill and it was written up basically to provide a human-based exotic weapon. In C&C, I'm going to use the 1e rule that has the bastard sword doing 1d8 when wielded one-handed and 2d4 when wielded two handed (I might tweak that to 1d10 when wielded two-handed though).

That's not a bad idea ! Well, i continu trying to look some way of calibrate this and, again, wait for other idea or maybe information in the Castellan's Guide to Arms & Armor that could maybe do the job to

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:14 pm

Frost wrote:
I have issues with the bastard sword in C&C as well. I think the 3.5 method is sort of overkill and it was written up basically to provide a human-based exotic weapon. In C&C, I'm going to use the 1e rule that has the bastard sword doing 1d8 when wielded one-handed and 2d4 when wielded two handed (I might tweak that to 1d10 when wielded two-handed though).

I'm scratching my head at the club doing 1d6+1. I can see letting an actual club (i.e., a crafted piece of wood) do 1d6, but for a table leg or something, I might restrict that to 1d4 or 1d4+1.

Believe me, no amount of getting around the author can change the 1d6+1 club. God knows I've tried. Though Frost, the bastard sword has changed in PHB1.4. The Bastard sword does 1d10 one handed and now 1d12 two handed! Well, that's because it is the greatest RPG sword of all time. Sheesh.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:15 pm

Omote, I have the 3rd printing of the C&C PH and it simply has it at 1d10 on the weapons chart. Am I missing something?
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:28 pm

I just have another question that cames on! For more part of you, do you change the dammage of weapon or you let it like that

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:45 pm

Frost wrote:
Omote, I have the 3rd printing of the C&C PH and it simply has it at 1d10 on the weapons chart. Am I missing something?

4th printing. There's a notation in the notes section on the bastard sword that gives it d12 two handed.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:58 pm

I leave the damages of the weapons as they are in the C&C books. The authors made them that way for a reason (see 1d6+1 club) and it keeps the rules consistant for players.

~O
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:25 pm

The only problems I have are with the club and the bastard sword damage. My house rules are 1d8 one-handed/1d10 two-handed for the bastard sword (I really don't understand the 1d10/1d12 rationale) and club damage as 1d6 (I can see it as being as effective as a shortsword, but not more so).

Regarding the bastard sword, and weapon selection in general, I do understand that there can be a role-playing element in weapon selection, but I know my players (hell, I know myself). If I can get 1d10 damage out of a weapon as easily as 1d8 (i.e., I can use a bastard sword just as easily as a longsword), I'm going to pick the 1d10 every time.

edit: Also, having the bastard sword do 1d12 when wield two-handed also puts a damper on the appeal of the two-handed sword, which does 2d6. Apart from a role-playing reason, there seems little reason to take the longsword OR the two-handed sword now.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:00 pm

There are plenty of reasons to use a long sword -- it is by far the most easily obtained magical item in the game, if one goes strictly by numbers. The two-handed sword has a very obvious reason for use -- it does massive damage, and if you don't care about the loss of 1 AC, the two-hander becomes even better (after all, it might even give you first strike against certain foes such as midgets).
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:22 pm

Plus, on average the 2-H sword is going to do more damage then the 2-H bastard sword. Also, Serleran makes a good point; long swords tend to be more common. In the game that I play in it's hard to get any sword other then long, short, etc. The rest are just not as readily available in the area where we are adventuring.

That's another way to play out the differences between weapon statistics in a campaign.

~O
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:14 am

Valid points. The likelihood of finding a magic longsword in most campaigns is typically greater than a magic bastard sword. But that really isn't a huge deal unless, say, a fighter opts to specialize in bastard sword. You certainly can certainly justify the 1d10/1d12 damage if the weapon is rare (i.e., if it is akin to being as rare as a magic item).

Personally, I'd rather lessen its damage output than increase its rarity.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:48 pm

Little bit in the same way that with those questions I asked, I just want to know how you deal with the Bow. Well, in my case, I think Ill give a bonus to damage equal to the strength when using a composite bow (long or short). Why? First, because it is not clearly says if it is a thrown or propelled weapon. I remember that, in D&D 3.5, even if bow was considered being a propelled weapon, some composite bow adds the strength too. Bound to this topic, when we look the crossbow, it does more damage and is cheaper. But to be sure that is wasnt to much, Ill compare two human fighter, one with a bow, another with a long sword, and easily realized that both had they advantage, and that crossbow was steal a good choice.

The only thing Im still struggling with, is when an archer is too close ( whatever your definition of too close). Do you apply a penalty of some sort, (expected attack of opportunity)? Just to know, because, in a certain way, youll have to take a bow each time you thrown a arrow

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:55 am

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I guess my biggest "huh?" moment about the C&C bastard sword damage is why does it do 1d10 one-handed? I'm not a weapon historian by any means, but I thought that a bastard sword wasn't all that different from a longsword size-wise and that the extra damage (i.e., 2d8 in 1e AD&D) came from the extra power one could put behind a swing when using it with two hands.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:59 pm

Clubs do 1d6. Nobody ever noticed that it did different by the book. Now that I seen it ... hmm, I guess like Tonfas or other "professional" clubs (that cost actual money) will do 1d6+1, whereas the ones found for free lying in the forest will do 1d6.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:06 pm

Frost wrote:
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I guess my biggest "huh?" moment about the C&C bastard sword damage is why does it do 1d10 one-handed? I'm not a weapon historian by any means, but I thought that a bastard sword wasn't all that different from a longsword size-wise and that the extra damage (i.e., 2d8 in 1e AD&D) came from the extra power one could put behind a swing when using it with two hands.

Oh, its a bit different, being a foot longer and about an inch wider than a long sword.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:07 am

serleran wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to use a long sword -- it is by far the most easily obtained magical item in the game, if one goes strictly by numbers.

Ya it's true, but the problem with that is that, if you want, you just have to take a bastard sword, and if you find a magic long sword, you take it, but otherwise, you should kept your bastard sword.

Well, I was just looking again in the weapon table, and I have to say that I find lot and lot of weapon that are, in my sens useless, like :

Dagger : better with club !

Sword Falsion : Better with broadsword

Sword rapier, scimitar, short : better club

Long sword : better with bastard, godentag, mace large etc,

And ect !

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:31 am

You're failing to remember one very key thing -- the Castle Keeper might not even allow all the weapons. Variety is variety so people can take what they like...but, that does not mean they should be equal. An axe is better at bashing down a tree than a long sword...does that make the axe better? Sure, if you need, or want, to log.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:59 am

serleran wrote:
You're failing to remember one very key thing -- the Castle Keeper might not even allow all the weapons. Variety is variety so people can take what they like...but, that does not mean they should be equal. An axe is better at bashing down a tree than a long sword...does that make the axe better? Sure, if you need, or want, to log.

Maybe, but the big problem is that all weapons have their utility, and have been create for some reason, sometimes it's because new armor block the old weapon. But the game don't simulate this (it was in add 2, and d&d3 give some bonus to each weapon, so it makes all weapon equal).

Steerpike · Post by **Steerpike** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:05 am

this assumes players are metagaming and/or not using RP reasons to perhaps prefer one weapon to another. In my game, depending on what part of the world the players are in, some weapons are going to be easy to come by, whereas another might be difficult to find if it wasn't developed in that area.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:15 am

Steerpike wrote:
this assumes players are metagaming and/or not using RP reasons to perhaps prefer one weapon to another. In my game, depending on what part of the world the players are in, some weapons are going to be easy to come by, whereas another might be difficult to find if it wasn't developed in that area.

Well, maybe !

The only thing I know is that is bugging me but it's like that im alone with this !!!! I know that the creators have decided to make the caracteristic of every weapon with full knowledge of the facts. But, i know that most of player will try to have the best weapon without thinking of RP, and i know that other won't. But for those of use the normal dammage attack (who don't have modified it and/ or that who let the players chose theirs weaponns), is your players always tried to take the better weapon, or they do role play, like take dagger with assasin instead of club ect ?

Steerpike · Post by **Steerpike** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:18 am

doomed_bishop wrote:
Well, maybe !

The only thing I know is that is bugging me but it's like that im alone with this !!!! I know that the creators have decided to make the caracteristic of every weapon with full knowledge of the facts. But, i know that most of player will try to have the best weapon without thinking of RP, and i know that other won't. But for those of use the normal dammage attack (who don't have modified it and/ or that who let the players chose theirs weaponns), is your players always tried to take the better weapon, or they do role play, like take dagger with assasin instead of club ect ?

My players do a little of both, I suppose. I've never had someone use a club in place of a dagger, for instance. My group is varied - a couple people who are more likely to just try to max things out, but most do a pretty good job of trying to look a the character from an RP standpoint and think about what weapon they would use.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:46 am

Well, i never have play yet to C&C. I think the best way is to try it like this (well, i already to litte modification like with Bow see above and the size of weapon for the small creature) and after i could have a better idea. Maybe just not allowing some weapon at the beginning that seems to exoctic for me !

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:33 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Oh, its a bit different, being a foot longer and about an inch wider than a long sword.

Good to know. Ok, so more questions here. It's easy to fault a player for meta-gaming and choosing the bastard sword over the longsword. But, setting aside issues of weapon availability. etc., why would a knowledgeable warrior choose a longsword over a bastard sword? That is, it's not a big stretch to find an in-game/in-character reason for a PC to pick a bastard sword over a longsword. A knowledgeable warrior would, presumably, know the pros and cons of a lot of weapons and it seems that there are no cons for using a bastard sword over a longsword (when talking about one-handed use).

I'm honestly trying to figure this one out and perhaps my knowledge of what a real-world bastard sword is is preventing me from doing so. Any input is welcome.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:36 pm

This is why I was a big fan of weapon speed in 2nd ed.

Take for example the 1st level fighter w/ optional rules from the complete fighter book, 4 weapon proficiency slots:

1> two handed combat

2> ambidexterous

(these two together eliminate all penalties for fighting two handed, if memory serves and maybe allows for parries too)

3> weapon

4> weapon specialization.

so #3 is the weapon you choose... longsword for 1d8 dmg but is slow or short sword for 1d6 damage but is fast?

if you play w/ weapon speed, the short sword is a good choice b/c you may get TWO hits in an an enemy before they can attack you... the best defence is killing your enemy before they can hurt you. (of course in the example above, this fighter is -2 with any other weapons, not too sweet)

In C&C I've considered a house rule where you subtract the weapons EV from your inititive roll so that 'weapon speed' means something, but without it, yeah, go for the biggest damage dice.

just my 2 coppers

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:11 pm

This is all very interesting. I never meta game when I play D&D, to the point where my character has been close to if not killed and needing resurection because I choose not to meta game. Sure I could have gotten that extra bit of damage, or whatever number/stat to help 'WIN' the game, but that's not the point is it? I want to ROLE PLAY and there is no way my Rogue is going to carry anything but his trusted dagger and short sword. Over the years, the DM has rewarded me with magical daggers and swords, which more than make up for the less then affective damage they do. PLUS... I don't want to get into another weapon speed discussion (we've all been there on these boards), but I just want to quicklly mention that in our 2e game, my dagger ALMOST ALWAYS goes first. I've downed a few enemies long before the dwarf could swing his massive hammer or before the enemy could deal a strike towards us.

So for me, weapon damage is just a number. Heck... I would be fine if there was a general rule that sais all weapons of SIZE S do 1d6, M 1d8, L 1D12 and two handed do some other combination.

As for the club, it may be a nasty weapon on paper, but a crafty DM and a sloppy character can see his trusty club get snapped in half or cought on fire (it's only wood afterall) while his buddy with the slighlty less powerfull sword can keep on swinging. Then again there is always that rust montser....

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:54 pm

I've tweaked a couple of weapons for a variety of reasons but only a couple.

The Rapier and Scimitar are a couple of examples. I've changed those to a 1d6+1 while keeping the shortsword as 1d6. The Bastard sword is one I tweaked as well (though I can't remember off the top of my head what I changed it to). The rest I've kept as-is because they tend to make sense relatively-speaking or a problem hasn't come up.

However, Serl is correct. Some of the weapons in the list may not be permitted. If playing a campaign in a given historical period, certain weapons may not be used. Culture will impose similar limitations.

Besides, like hitpoints, damage caused by a weapon is also an abstract concept.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:09 pm

Frost wrote:
Good to know. Ok, so more questions here. It's easy to fault a player for meta-gaming and choosing the bastard sword over the longsword. But, setting aside issues of weapon availability. etc., why would a knowledgeable warrior choose a longsword over a bastard sword? That is, it's not a big stretch to find an in-game/in-character reason for a PC to pick a bastard sword over a longsword. A knowledgeable warrior would, presumably, know the pros and cons of a lot of weapons and it seems that there are no cons for using a bastard sword over a longsword (when talking about one-handed use).

I'm honestly trying to figure this one out and perhaps my knowledge of what a real-world bastard sword is is preventing me from doing so. Any input is welcome.

Weapons like the bastard sword and the two handed sword are not subtle, and they require a lot of room to manoeuvre, as any 5-6 foot long shaft of metal would.

A long sword and a short sword are more practical for some of the close order fighting one would find in a dungeon.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:25 pm

doomed_bishop wrote:
Well, maybe !

The only thing I know is that is bugging me but it's like that im alone with this !!!! I know that the creators have decided to make the caracteristic of every weapon with full knowledge of the facts. But, i know that most of player will try to have the best weapon without thinking of RP, and i know that other won't. But for those of use the normal dammage attack (who don't have modified it and/ or that who let the players chose theirs weaponns), is your players always tried to take the better weapon, or they do role play, like take dagger with assasin instead of club ect ?

When I played assassin I picked Dagger because it hid better, could be thrown easier, and have you ever heard of a poisoned club.

Dont worry if most of your players are picking certain weapons all the time. There is a certain cinematic appeal to all the good guys having common aspects in appearances.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:45 pm

Quote:
When I played assassin I picked Dagger because it hid better, could be thrown easier, and have you ever heard of a poisoned club.

Dont worry if most of your players are picking certain weapons all the time. There is a certain cinematic appeal to all the good guys having common aspects in appearances.

You're probably right. But, well, maybe it's because i played a lot of 3.5 D&D, so i'm accustomed in having 100% (well not 100% !) equilibrated weapon, that all have their adavance on one another, and this out of role playing game.

I still know that C&C is a role playing game, not a roll playing game so it is true that the dammage it is just abstraction and that if we're choosing weapon for role play, it'll be a lot more agreable. But, it's also true that if the weapons were more equilibrated, it should lessen this difficulty, well in my case lol !

I thing that these internention conclued a litte bit the debate, well in a sence !

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:58 pm

Well, if nothing else the weapons guide done by Mike Stewart for C&C gives some extra variance to this issue, and may add enough to satisfy issues with it.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread I actually used weapons speeds and weapon versus armor in 1E. Yeah, it took a while to fill in that table on the 1E character sheets, but it did make the weapons feel extremely different.

However, I also learned most players are lazy and hate tracking all that stuff, and I sure wasn't going to do it, so it quit getting used.

Maybe todays players like tracking all of that extra stuff.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:56 pm

Quote:
Well, if nothing else the weapons guide done by Mike Stewart for C&C gives some extra variance to this issue, and may add enough to satisfy issues with it

The problem is that, at the store of role playing game, at Montreal city, doesn't have it, even if they did one time, so i can't use it now !