Rules question

[Maliki]

irda ranger wrote:
That's it buddy; I'm putting you on CK probation. I'm not sure you've got what it takes to be a real CK. How are they ever going to learn if you coddle them?

I know, I'm getting soft in my old age (40 in two weeks ).

There where many things that made me ease up.

I could see a TPK in the works, and that could have started a bad chain of events. One player has mentioned taking another stab at DMing or Cking, and I don't want to lgive up my spot behind the screen (yet). I don't mind killing characters, but one or two at a time, not all of them.

Plus two of the players are new and I hate killing new players characters.

The party had a sixth member who is by far the most experienced of the group who has taken a break for a while, so they were without thier arcane spellcaster. (And the real brain of the outfit)
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[Maliki]

Omote wrote:
There's always a good time to be generous to your PCs, and at the same time you still have to have a firm hand. Players who get too used to having it the easy way, will begin to rely on the ease of the adventure. There still has to be a penalty for really dumb decisions on the PCs part.

But as a CK you have to know how to moderate such things.

.....................................Omote

FPQ

One thing that did allow me to do this was the fact the players had no idea I let them slide. So hopefully they will not get the idea that they can't die. Looking ahead to the next couple of weeks they could still be in deep trouble.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

[Omote]

Maliki wrote:
One thing that did allow me to do this was the fact the players had no idea I let them slide.

One of the qualities of a talented CK to be sure. 8)

..................................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Treebore]

I definitely run my games different from many other CK's/DM's. For one I am not afraid of a lot of magic being "around". Only so much can be used at one time by one character anyways.

Besides, 3E has totally redefined my idea of "hi powered". Which I also find funny since I played RIFTS and Synnibar so much. Two systems to satisfy any powergamers wet dreams.

I guess I just had to see the "power bar" lifted that high within the context of D&D.

Another is that I am sure most players like their characters, so I will make sure I don't kill them unless they were under prepared, despite all the recon info I give them, or do something even dumber.

Its why I use Luck Points, God Calls, and fudged rolls to keep them above -10, etc... Now if a player tells me they are ready to try out another character, that they aren't having fun with the current character then I'll let them stay dead. But I always find a way to allow for Reincarnations, Raise Dead, etc... if they do want to keep playing.

Which is easy to do when you establish the existance of high level NPC's that can do such things, and then roleplay a relationship of some kind with the NPC's. This doesn't have to be direct. They could be friends of a friend who can get them in to see the NPC if the need ever arises.

All of this is aimed at one thing, for everyone to have fun. Its hard to have fun if your character dies, irrevocably, every few battles, all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I love meat grinder adventures. Tome of Horrors and Rappan Athuk are two of my all time favorite mods, with Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth, Ravenloft, and LICH Lords close behind. Not to mention the Bloodstone Mine Modules. When I do those I run them as one shots. Literally see how far you can get before your killed. A "tournament module" kind of approach.

So irregardless of what you do, as long as you and your players continue to have fun, then you did the right thing. Thats the best way to know if your being a good CK.

[irda ranger]

Quote:
I definitely run my games different from many other CK's/DM's. For one I am not afraid of a lot of magic being "around". Only so much can be used at one time by one character anyways.

Besides, 3E has totally redefined my idea of "hi powered". Which I also find funny since I played RIFTS and Synnibar so much. Two systems to satisfy any powergamers wet dreams.

I guess I just had to see the "power bar" lifted that high within the context of D&D.

Just to clarify one point from earlier, I run a high power* game too; it's just that the power is intrinsic to the PC, not extrinsic to his tools. It can't be taken away from them. I don't even know what Synnibar is, and RIFTS runs the gamut from intinsic to extrinsic, but D&D 3.x has drawn a clear line in the sand and taken the "I am defined by my stuff" position. Can roleplaying overcome that? Probably, but it's easier to run a game where the rules support your preferred style of play, and not actively oppose it.

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Its why I use Luck Points, God Calls, and fudged rolls to keep them above -10, etc...

YMMV, of course, but I find fun goes down when "fudged rolls" are used too often. I use Glory Points though. That's something the PC can earn, and cash in when they need it. I think they reduced mortality by 90% (since most PC deaths are bad luck, rather than poor tactics or strategy), without an adverse effect on fun.

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Don't get me wrong, I love meat grinder adventures. Tome of Horrors and Rappan Athuk are two of my all time favorite mods, with Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth, Ravenloft, and LICH Lords close behind.

All very fun as one-shots. I find them to be harmful to long campaigns, however, since an entire group of PC's that players have spent a year leveling up can be churned through in just a couple sessions.

* - I define "high power" as "The PC's can kick butt and take names all day for lowly mooks (orcs, etc.), and it's only the bosses that result in a knock-down, drag-out fight." Think Star Wars (Luke vs. Storm Troopers vis a vis Luke vs. Vader). The PC's fear for their lives sometimes, but not all the time (as long as they avoid rampant moronism).
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[Treebore]

Nowadays, when i want everyone to have intrinsic powers, I break out Mutants and Masterminds.

I get what your saying, but fighters don't have intrinsic powers, they are made to use items of power.

Like in the current phase of the game they picked up the Hammer of Thunderbolts. A really nasty weapon against Giants, especially a Ranger who chose Giants as their special enemy.

But that is what makes fighter types cool. They get to use these awesome items of power. Spellcasters get to call on power.

So even though this Ranger is kick butt against giant types, and still powerful against others, I am not intimidated by it. I know how to control it, and I have no problem with him cutting loose and putting the smackdown on a bunch of giants. After this phase of the campaign Giant opponents are going to be few and far between. So he will just have a +5 Hammer that can cause a stun effect. Not hard to deal with.

What I do find hard to deal with is high AC's. To make things challenging/dangerous I have to throw spellcasters at them. If they fail too many rolls I could quickly have a TPK on my hands.

For the record I have destroyed two suits of armor succesfully and tried to destroy another set, a sword, and a Lance, but they made their saves.

They have also accumulated a lot of +1 weapons and armor, and a butt load of expert weapons. So the hundred strong "Emerald Guard" protecting Diamond Vale (Slag Heap module) is very well equiped. Their leader types are equipped with +2 items and some potions. Plus their other "party", that is 5th level, and called the "Swords of Justice" makes their home in the Diamond Vale.

Anyways, as you can see I run a very high fantasy game, because that is how I think it has to be with the basic assumptions of the game, and how I have played it ever since I was introduced to D&D. Plus I am comfortable with it, and still run good games that usually has my players always wondering if they are going to survive the next major fight.

As to fudging, believe me, one thing I have definitely learned in 22 years of playing and DMing is to not fudge unless you HAVE to. IE to save the game, save a character that you know the player isn't ready to quit playing, and similiar important reasons.

So I am totally with you on fudging sparingly.

So how do you give fighter types "intrinsic" powers?

[irda ranger]

Treebore, you are absolutely, 100% correct that your game sounds like the logical conclusion of the C&C / D&D RAW "basic assumptions." A typical OD&D module had so many magical items lying around that a party would have +1 swords to spare by the end of the second one, and a magically-equipped retinue fighters by the end of the third or fourth (just as you describe). The basic assumptions force you to play in "D&D-world", instead of Middle Earth or Lankhmar. Rather than try to "fix" this "problem", as I have with my house rules, you have embraced it. So has WotC, with the creation of Eberron (which is a really, really cool setting because the rules support it and "make it work." The fact that the rules came first and Eberron second doesn't matter; what matters is that they work together.). I see these solutions as "sub-optimal" however because I like to evoke familiar literature in my games (whether Lovecraft & Poe, Tolkien, Howard or Homer), and that's very hard to do when you have the Hammer of Thunderbolts lying around. At that point D&D becomes its own milieu, and I just don't want to play in a world where every member of the Emerald Guard has a magical sword. That's not magical anymore; but mundane and common.

I would contest, however, your position that "fighters don't have intrinsic powers, they are made to use items of power." While that's an apt description of D&D Fighters (the class, as written), it's not an apt description of any fighter-type from legend or historic fantasy. I think fighters are made to fight, and they should be able to do that with whatever comes to hand (think of (1) Beowulf tears the arm of Grendal and beats him with it; (2) Conan breaks the rust of an old sword to kill the wolves; or (3) the scene in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, when Master Li Mu Bai (easily) defeats Jen Yu even though she wields The Green Destiny and he just has a stick).

Also, it just bothers me that the rules say it's near-impossible to make magic items, and yet there's one lying in every owlbear hoard.

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For the record I have destroyed two suits of armor succesfully and tried to destroy another set, a sword, and a Lance, but they made their saves.

Ah, but you did allow a save, yes? You see, because equipment is almost always non-magical and fairly replaceable in my campaign, I can destroy armor and weapons narratively. Favorite weapons can be broken, lost, stolen, thrown into volcanoes, eaten by rust monsters, swallowed by Purple Worms or simply left behind during a hasty retreat (they hate the last one the most), all without (1) the PC's being totally screwed, (2) me having to sprinkle the world with +2 swords, or (3) the players hating me (which they would if I ran my game like Serleran apparently runs his). This gives me way more quest hooks, adventure plots, and general adventure design freedom than RAW C&C allows for (without violation of consequences 1, 2, or 3, above). In other words, what you see as "cool" (Fighters getting their "awesome items of power"), I see as a source of serious issues.

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So how do you give fighter types "intrinsic" powers?

In the C&C RAW, only hit points and BtH increase with level, while AC and damage output remain flat (slight, +1~2 boosts sprinkled about, but just graph graph Hit Point accumulation versus damage-dealing capability (without magic weapons), and you'll see AC and damage are "no better than 1st level" for all practical respects (They're also pathetic (even with magical items as the game assumes) compared to what Magic-Users can dish out regularly).

I simply scale AC and Damage with level, so that they keep up with BtH and HP without the aid of magic items. Check out my NPC Write-Up of Beowulf (a thread on this board). As a 20th level fighter he does 4d10+6 dmg with a battleaxe. Just a plain axe; nothing special. If you assume that Druss the Legend is also a 20th level fighter, but uses a two-handed axe, he would do 7d8+6. He'd also have an AC of 30 (naked, before accounting for Dex) and more HP than you can shake a stick at.

Now, both Druss and Beowulf would be in trouble facing a werewolf without a silver weapon (or a Troll without a torch), but it doesn't ruin the themes of my campaign to allow for "rare but acquirable" silver weapons the way having daggers +1 in pawn shops would. Hell, Beowulf would probably take the silver torque off his neck, wrap it around his hand, and use his "silver knuckles" (2d8+3) to beat the werewolf into a bloody pulp; and that's cool with me.

To keep AC's from getting ridiculous, Armor grants DR instead of AC and magical shields (such as may exist) do not grant additional bonuses to AC beyond what a normal shield does (they only have "wondrous" powers, such as reflecting gaze attacks).
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Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

[ChaosImp]

Hello

Ive just seen that the duration for Mind Black isn't listed, any idea what it is. I looked through the errata and could not find a reference.

IMP

[Treebore]

Well, for such a question I break out my trusty 3E HB and look it up. In 3E I see that its duration is a flat 24 hours. I remember older editions being similiar, so I would go with the flat 24 hours.

Now if the Trolls meant to change that I have no idea.