Guardians of Thoth (new monster) - feedback sought

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:04 pm

As I slowly work up my megadungeon for its eventual victims, errrr players, I've created a couple of new monsters to fit the themes of various areas. As I haven't created a lot of monsters for C&C, I'd be interested in any feedback some of you more experienced hands might be willing to give.

this one is for a large region of the main entrance level which once upon a time housed a large temple complex devoted to Thoth. I'm thinking the level should be for 2nd-3rd level PCs. Any thoughts? thanks in advance
Guardian of Thoth

No. Encountered: varies, usually 1

Size: medium

HD: 3 (d8)

Move: 60 ft

AC: 15

Attacks: 2 claws (1d4), beak (1d6)

Special: Darkvision, Darkness, Shriek

Saves: P, M

INT: Average

Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Type: extraplanar

Treasure:

XP: 50 + 3/hp

Guardians of Thoth are Ibis-headed bipedal creatures from an outer plane who are dedicated to serving Thoth. They can be summoned to the material plane by priests of Thoth, usually to serve as guardians of locations or secrets. Although not undead, they are patient like undead and require no sustenance for long periods of time. Guardians can come in various shapes and sizes, but most commonly appear as spindly humanoid forms with a white ibis head. The arms end in claw-like hands, which rend for 1d4 each. The beak is sharp and can deal 1d6 damage. The most feared feature of the Guardian, however, is its shriek, which causes momentary disorientation in those who do not make a WIS check. Favored tactics of the Guardian include imposing darkness, then Shrieking, and then moving in to attack.
Darkness: 3x per day a Guardian can impose darkness as per the spell. This is a spell-like ability.
Shriek: 3x per day a Guardian can utter a mind-twisting shriek which twists the senses of moral listeners with its alien notes and rhythms. The shriek is loud, and can be heard in a 50' radius. Those with unblocked ears must make a WIS save or be disoriented for 1d4 rounds. Disoriented characters cannot attack or cast spells, but may stumble away in terror.
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clavis123 · Post by **clavis123** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:34 am

I have one concern. The Darkness ability might be too powerful for 2nd level characters to face, especially in combination with the shriek. Remember, if the creature can see in its own Darkness, the spell grants virtual invisibility. In fact, it's better because the creature can freely attack. Combine that with the disorienting shriek and the ability to deal out enough damage to kill the average 2nd level character, and chances are high that somebody's PC is going to die.

Unless that's the point, and the players are meant to understand the creature's power and bargain instead of fight.

Otherwise, good work. I like to see Outsiders from the neutral Alignments.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:28 am

I do not see these are being exceptionally powerful guardians, but they do have the potential for an unprepared party to end on the wrong side of giggles. The fact the shriek is relatively easy to bypass, and the darkness created also simply countered by a cantrip, the party would need to be either wholly off-guard or stupid. This makes the creature good at what it does, but does not become the sort of "random party killer" that sometimes happens when unexpected meets occur. I would likely reduce the shriek and darkness, however, to once per day... or, perhaps make the shriek usaful only in areas of darkness.
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koralas · Post by **koralas** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:59 am

clavis123 wrote:
I have one concern. The Darkness ability might be too powerful for 2nd level characters to face, especially in combination with the shriek. Remember, if the creature can see in its own Darkness, the spell grants virtual invisibility. In fact, it's better because the creature can freely attack. Combine that with the disorienting shriek and the ability to deal out enough damage to kill the average 2nd level character, and chances are high that somebody's PC is going to die.

Unless that's the point, and the players are meant to understand the creature's power and bargain instead of fight.

Otherwise, good work. I like to see Outsiders from the neutral Alignments.

But nothing in the spell description lends itself to the caster of the the Darkness spell to seeing in it's own darkness. Further the spell description specifically states "Not even creatures that can normally see in the dark can see in an area shrouded in magical darkness." So even the darkvision ability of the guardians doesn't help with this.

3xday on the Shriek ability may be a bit tough if the average character (other than Cleric, Druid, and Ranger) has a Wis of 9-11. This will result in near 50% failure rate at 2nd level. Perhaps a limitation on how soon the shriek can be attempted again. like 3xday, but the ability can only be used every other, or every third round?

koralas · Post by **koralas** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:05 am

serleran wrote:
I do not see these are being exceptionally powerful guardians, but they do have the potential for an unprepared party to end on the wrong side of giggles. The fact the shriek is relatively easy to bypass, and the darkness created also simply countered by a cantrip, the party would need to be either wholly off-guard or stupid. This makes the creature good at what it does, but does not become the sort of "random party killer" that sometimes happens when unexpected meets occur. I would likely reduce the shriek and darkness, however, to once per day... or, perhaps make the shriek usaful only in areas of darkness.

The Light cantrip does not negate the effects of magical darkness. The Darkness spell's reverse is Daylight, and is also a 2nd level spell, and it can cancel the effect of Darkness in areas where they overlap, leaving normal light for that area in place. (Note though, that if in a underground setting, unless there is a light source in the overlapping areas, the normal lighting is still darkness, though in this case it would be normal darkness.) Further, the Light cantrip specifically states that "Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function." That is, the object with Light cast upon it ceases to function while in the AoE of the Darkness spell.

I do agree on the frequency of the Shriek ability as per my previous post.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:03 pm

The point was, and still is, the monster is not that terrible a threat to a stubborn or persistent party. Add in a little forethought, hopefully because the party tries to discover what they may face before they do something, and the creature is even more reduced to a general annoyance -- that does not make it a bad creature. In fact, I would say it makes it do its job. Not all encounters should be "equal."
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Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:08 pm

thanks for the feedback, guys. I had thought this thread dead on arrival.

I intended it to be a difficult-ish encounter for relatively low-level (2nd-3rd) newbie players. A more seasoned party could take immediate steps to stop the shriek (wax, anyone?), of course. But the first appearance of the Guardians comes at an important point in the megadungeon, one in which the PCs will have to think seriously about whether to fight or flee. I don't have any basic problems with throwing a dangerous - potentially lethal, even - encounter at them in that particular context.

clavis' point about near invisibility is a good one. I have to say I haven't play-tested this one, so I may need to reconsider. Don't necessarily WANT a tpk with my newbies.

koralas - I like the suggestion of limited use of Shriek to, perhaps, every third round.

Again, thanks very much for the feedback.
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The only thing you find in the middle of the road are dead animals and dumb Americans - Anton Newcombe

koralas · Post by **koralas** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:02 am

serleran wrote:
The point was, and still is, the monster is not that terrible a threat to a stubborn or persistent party. Add in a little forethought, hopefully because the party tries to discover what they may face before they do something, and the creature is even more reduced to a general annoyance -- that does not make it a bad creature. In fact, I would say it makes it do its job. Not all encounters should be "equal."

Agreed, I like the concept of the creature, and it is well executed. As for not having all encounters "equal", I most heartily agree...

The concept of crafting encounters to be balanced to the party ability, and consume 25% of the players resources, blah, blah, blah, is one of the things I truly despised in 3rd Edition. All things based on challenge ratings, equivalent levels, or whatever the terminology was, really means the players party has the advantage. I loved hearing a few players shout, "that's not fair, we are only 3rd level, how are we supposed to fight an ancient red dragon!" Of course the answer is, you don't, you parlay or run... as fast as you can... Not everything in life is fair, not every challenge we face in real life is something we can succeed at, why should it be any different in a fantasy game? If the players realize that the threat of the death of their characters is real, especially for underestimating an opponent or situation, it makes for more enjoyable games.