The Fencer

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:03 pm

deleted

koralas · Post by **koralas** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:11 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
Sorry...this morning's inspiration based on lobo's desire for an INT based fighter class...
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Fencer.pdf

Enjoy!
(link also posted on lobo's new class thread)

note: just realized I had not done the EPP table. This is now fixed.

Nice start, but would this not be better called a Tactician? The Fencer, and brief description in the first sentence really lend itself better to a Dex based warrior than an Int based one.

Also, I would probably drop the Armor and Weapon restrictions, and bump the HD to a d8 (after all they are not brute force warriors). The weapon specialization, being a lighter version than the fighter works for me. Alternatively remove it and allow for Smart Strike. Smart Strike would work for any weapon, and would allow the character to utilize the Int modifier instead of the Str modifier when rolling to hit, though the Str modifier is still applied to damage rolls.

Finally on Mortal strike, rather than damage multipliers, I would allow an additional die of damage per Int modifier. This keeps the ability unique, though not quite as powerful as the Rogue's Back Attack or the Assasins Death Attack.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:50 pm

Most fencing is a meeting of wills and a study of one's opponent. It also encompasses more than the epee, foil, and saber used in modern fencing. That battle of will and identification of an opponent's "tell" is where the INT base comes in. Japanese kendo and duels tended to be decided by a single perfect strike...after a battle waged with the spirit or mind further supporting this base.

The abilities I proposed are a melding of eastern and european fencing which at its base is specialized swordsmanship. Inclusive of such arts martial is the study of one's opponent, popularly called "taking their measure" which to me again evokes mental agility in analysing and recognizing the patterns swordsmen tend to fall into. It was quite possible to even identify a swordsman's home region, teacher, and/or school by their method of fighting. Knowing such things enables one to counter such things, hence the expert defence and identify weakness abilities.

The Mortal strike is taken from the failing of armored opponents against lighter, faster swordsmen using rapiers to attack the unprotected joints and seams in the armor evidencing a degree of study of their opponent to find these weak points and accuracy in attacking them. I decided on damage multipliers based on intelligence due to the sharper mind picking out the more vulnerable points of their opponent and thereby hitting more vital (damaging) organs. I did refrain from a death strike ability as might actually be more appropiate given the propensity for such rapier wielding swordsmen to strike through the helm eye slits to kill or blind their opponent.

Anywho...that's the reasoning I used in developing the class...though I admit to spending some time struggling with a name for the class. Fencer seemed most appropriate, though blade master came in a close second but I felt that was far closer to a standard fighter. Tactician is more properly applied when dealing with squad or platoon-sized units of troops and larger movements and their employment on the battlefield, not so much as between individual combat in my experience though individuals do also employ tactics in combat. This is at a completely different level than what a tactician would be utilizing however.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:23 am

I might clarify if one can use Identify Weakness and Mortal Strike on the same opponent (I don't see why not, the 1 round 'off' is a balance) and perhaps clarify what, if anything, happens if the Fencer is damaged during that round (spoil Mortal Strike like a spell casting? another int check w/ higher CL, and it takes another round?).

and I suppose technically, the way it's worded, the Fencer must stand still staring at their opponent the whole round, not even move at all... can they still dodge or act defensivly? Because I think technically if not, they'd loose any DEx bonus to AC or be considered prone... or something. very minor editing detail.

That said:

I think this is sweet! It has cool powers and flavor (good crunch and fluff) and achieves your goal of making a class that's general enough to be western or eastern, a samurai or eppee fencer. quite cool!

I'm so stealing this!

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:01 am

The assumption being, without saying to the contrary, is that the fencer cannot act offensively (it should read or other offensive action) hence make no attack or undertake any such action. They still may dodge and defend...and do not have to stand absolutely still which while in combat would be absurd. If they are hit this does not disrupt their round of study unless of course it drops them in their tracks.

Yes, one may use Identify Weakness on an opponent (if they are humanoid or giant type) and Mortal Strike if you've spent the previous round in study. Made some edits to clarify this.

Glad you like it though.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:07 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
The assumption being, without saying to the contrary, is that the fencer cannot act offensively (it should read or other offensive action) hence make no attack or undertake any such action. They still may dodge and defend...and do not have to stand absolutely still which while in combat would be absurd. If they are hit this does not disrupt their round of study unless of course it drops them in their tracks.

I figured, I'm just a stickler/pest for language.

Go0gleplex wrote:
Glad you like it though.

I meant it! Good stuff! Even with the round of not fighting in order to use it, does anyone think Mortal Strike should be a once a day kind of thing? or any time the fencer makes an Int check.... to compare it with the Rogue's backstab, Rouge can use that any number of times a day with an dex check for the sneaking... is that the same thing? it probably is.

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:34 pm

Looks good. I've had a "savvy fencer" in our group for a while and the player was getting frustrated. It didn't help that her stats were +1 at best, in addition to the leather armor and fencing gear she was using assigned to her fighter PC.

She was always wanting to do more damage, though, so I don't know if this class would excite her.

Or spin was to retroactively give her the class and half set up, Fighter/Assasin. And then we gave her a magic rapier with extra damage. She's good now.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:30 pm

[quote="anglefish"]Looks good. I've had a "savvy fencer" in our group for a while and the player was getting frustrated. It didn't help that her stats were +1 at best, in addition to the leather armor and fencing gear she was using assigned to her fighter PC.

She was always wanting to do more damage, though, so I don't know if this class would excite her.

Or spin was to retroactively give her the class and half set up, Fighter/Assasin. And then we gave her a magic rapier with extra damage. She's good now.[/quote]

Then again, how many fighters take INT as a prime. Damage isn't the focus of this class really so until she got to 10th level, it might not excite her if she's looking for a walking ginsu type. Then again, potentially acting first 20-40% of the time isn't a small thing either.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:43 am

Go0gleplex wrote:
Then again, how many fighters take INT as a prime. Damage isn't the focus of this class really so until she got to 10th level, it might not excite her if she's looking for a walking ginsu type. Then again, potentially acting first 20-40% of the time isn't a small thing either.

She did! But I think she still wants to be better than the Rogue who rolled insanely good on all of his stats.

I know that I'd opt for ANY Init. bonus in C&C.

zombiehands · Post by **zombiehands** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:21 pm

I think DEX would make a better prime since all fighting styles "read" their oppenent that is better represented by level not INT

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:12 am

If you simply want to swing a sword...it would be STR. If you want to control where the sword hits...it would be DEX. If you want to know how best to apply/use the sword then you're talking INT.

As to reading one's opponent, you can spot the shift in their hips or shoulders which are the common tells that most swordsmen would be expected to pick up as they progressed. But in fencing, you're dealing with an entirely different level of combat. In kendo for instance which is a physical and mentally challenging activity, there are two popular schools. The itto-ryu, or single sword school and the muto-ryu, or swordless school which espouses that there is no sword outside the mind.

In modern fencing, the use of the blade is Dex...no arguement there...but it is a mental discipline even more-so than physical. Talk to a fencer sometime. The hardest part of the duel is the moments before a strike is even made by either one.

But as I said, the INT base is what my research and personal experience have led me to my opinions on it.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:31 am

Proper swordsmanship is a combination of many factors. Strength plays a part, so does endurance, intelligence and quickness. It also has to do with what the swordsman (or woman) has their strength in.

Intelligence can certainly be a factor, it just depends on your opponent.

And I've spent the better part of my life with a sword in hand. Both in melee and cavalry training.
So a bladesmaster class with an intelligence prime is certainly logical. Where such a class puts its other primes also would indicate variations among blademaster types.

You could just as easily have several variations here in one class. From the burly two handed sword wielders to the light blades and fleet foot types.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:44 am

So, umm, how much for the diamonds we looted from her majesty's secret stash?

Oh, wait... not that kind of fencer.

I think I'll have to write up a broker class now.
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zombiehands · Post by **zombiehands** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:53 am

Not to be argumentative but you dont simply swing any weapon. All weapon techniques require timing and reading your opponents next move. Not just swords. Swords are just more responsive (quicker) than say a battle axe. Generally, sticks (staffs, ect) faster more versatile than swords.

In reality DEX and INT should affect all fighting skills but in a game where the defense is determined by how much armor you are wearing, penetration (STR) is most import hence applied to melee to hits.

As far kendo mumbo jumbo about it is all in your mind, well every physical skill takes mental discipline and to me that is your level. To put it another way a zero level farmer (bth+0) just swings his weapon, he knows no better, he is unfocused and scared out of his mind. A tenth level fight (bth+10 ) knows just about every parry and trick in the book, he is one with his weapon.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:30 pm

hehehe...Broker class. Nice.
Well...rather than take this where it has no business going, if you don't agree or have issues with the class then don't use it.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:13 pm

Well I'm not sold on the Int based fighter concept for the fencer.

Despite all the long diatribes of what it takes to swing a sword, they need to be based on Strength...or for the fencer...Dex.

I tend to think the truly Intelligent would find someone else to fight for them.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:59 pm

Or, use magic. Or, trick others into thinking they're divine healers. Wait... maybe that one is Charisma.
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