spell points ...

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:50 am

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

Anyone gives this version a try in CnC. No surprise that most of the rule can be skipped since they don't apply (spontaneous heal casting by clerics, etc.)

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:18 pm

I am not a fan of spell pools. It tends to make the already powerful spellcasters even more powerful. If C&C implemented restrictions, like damage caps, then it might not be as overwhelmingly awesome... but, I see little reason to amplify the abilities of the spellcasting classes.
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Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:11 pm

serleran wrote:
I am not a fan of spell pools. It tends to make the already powerful spellcasters even more powerful.

This is one of the problems I'm having with trying to come up with a spell-point system for the game. Vancian magic just doesn't fit the style of my campaign world, but I'm having a heck of a time trying to come up with a spell point system that doesn't make casters way too powerful. Has anyone had any luck with a simple spell point system that isn't broken? I've seen the alternate spell-casting systems that were published in the 2nd ed AD&D book Spells and Powers, but having to refer to a table to find out how many points you get, then spend points to select spells and then spend points to cast spells seems too cumbersome to me.

I was thinking of giving casters a number of spell points equal to their level plus their casting attribute modifier, with a casting cost of one point per spell level. But I think this might nerf them too much, particularly at higher levels.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:54 pm

Well, at first, I had thought if there was a spell cap system, maybe at a spell level x 3 or something (this would make magic missile far less effective than standard), but I dunno. This would make each individual spell less powerful, but considering they could probably be cast more often, it would be somewhat counterbalanced. As for what to use for the spell pool... I tend to like static amounts, like Intelligence (or Wisdom) and have it increase by Attribute modifier / level. Keep it low, so numerous high level spells aren't thrown around...
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Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:02 am

serleran wrote:
Keep it low, so numerous high level spells aren't thrown around...

Agreed; the last thing I want is for casters to give up their low-level spells to get game-breaking numbers of high-level spells. Perhaps there is no simple way of doing this.
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jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:29 am

An old spell point system for C&C, available from http://www.cncplayer.net/ (http://www.cncplayer.net/download/ASC_C_C.pdf)

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:07 pm

There's also the "Readied Spells" option I was talking about in another thread here. It's still Vancian, but it opens things up a bit for casters, but doesn't deal with spell points.

Might be worth a look. *shrug*
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Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:31 pm

An old DM I knew used a spell point system where spell casters (MU & Clerics, etc) got half their Intelligence or Wisdom Attribute per level in spell points per day. To cast a spell, it cost a number of spell points equal to the level of the spell squared.

So an 8th level Magic User with a 16 Intelligence had 64 spell points a day. If he wanted to cast a fourth level spell, it would cost him 16 spell points.

This system seemed to work and seemed to keep the spell casters in check.
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Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:57 pm

jaguar451 wrote:
An old spell point system for C&C, available from http://www.cncplayer.net/ (http://www.cncplayer.net/download/ASC_C_C.pdf)

Thanks Jaguar, this system has exactly the feel I was looking for and looks simple to use. I'll give it a try.
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:11 pm

I've experimented with them, but still found them... artificial. To me, both spell points and classic vancian spell casting feels like an artificial construct that's only there to limit casting: no in-game reason for it.

The only one that i've seen work nicely is that in the Midnight campaign setting. But it's a rare-magic setting- high level magic is not meant to be cast nearly as often as per standard rules.

I prefer spell-check systems myself. Fighters have to roll to do what they do best, and so do wizards.

-Fizz

AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:10 pm

You can check my house rules for my spell system, it works pretty easily and I feel combines the strengths of the Vancian system with a freedom of a slot system.
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:27 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
There's also the "Readied Spells" option I was talking about in another thread here. It's still Vancian, but it opens things up a bit for casters, but doesn't deal with spell points.

Might be worth a look. *shrug*

linky linky

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:29 pm

Dude, it's like 7 posts below this thread topic....
But, here you go anyway.
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Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:25 pm

These have all been some very interesting options. Thanks for the input, everyone.
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Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:06 pm

serleran wrote:
I am not a fan of spell pools. It tends to make the already powerful spellcasters even more powerful. If C&C implemented restrictions, like damage caps, then it might not be as overwhelmingly awesome... but, I see little reason to amplify the abilities of the spellcasting classes.

I agree , spellcasters are powerful enough as presented.

Aladar wrote:
So an 8th level Magic User with a 16 Intelligence had 64 spell points a day. If he wanted to cast a fourth level spell, it would cost him 16 spell points.

This wizard would be able to throw up to 7 fireball spells per day, if needed. High Intelligence wizards would have an even bigger advantage as well.

AslanC system I like better. I like the counterspell option.

Lord Dynel's readied spell system I have used and I like it.

Now a system using the siege check allowing a caster to use a known but unprepared spell might be something I would consider using.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:33 am

Fizz wrote:
I prefer spell-check systems myself. Fighters have to roll to do what they do best, and so do wizards.-Fizz

Have one? Sounds interesting.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:48 am

Hrolfgar wrote:
Now a system using the siege check allowing a caster to use a known but unprepared spell might be something I would consider using.

Maybe casting from spellbook ("ritual casting" or somthing like that?)

For spells in ones spellbook but not prepared, 30 minutes or 1 hour prep + 10 times normal casting time. And can't be disrupted during casting.

Then some combination (0..n) of:

- Siege check

* Hrder per spell level (linear or 2xlevel)

* Easier per caster level

* Other bonus to get success rate where desired for lvl 1 caster to cast lvl 1 spell this way

- Loose a memorized spell of the same or higher level

- Cast automatigically

- ???

Kinda like scroll usage, but slower and a different type of cost.

Allows use of utility spells without prepping them all, but also can't use any known spell at the spur of the moment (no hold portal while being chased if you haven't memorized it....) Might lead to more combat spells being memorized, but if your casters memorize 75-100% combat spells anyways, no loss...

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:02 pm

Thanks, serl, for linking my post...I was pretty absent yesterday (sick, unfortunately).

The readied spells are pretty interesting. I don't think they make spellcasters more powerful than they do more versitile...unless versility equals power.
I think a counterspell option could be added to the readied spell system. First, if a Dispel Magic spell is memorized, it could be houseruled that one could cast Dispel Magic as a reaction to an enemy spellcaster (as long as DM is capable of dispelling the spell). The "dispeller" makes an Intelligence check vs. the spell (as described in the spell itself) to dispel it (possibley at the expenditure of the caster's next action?). Another way to dispel would be to have either the same spell, or an oppostie spell to "counter" it that way. Note the same spell theory is one used in 3.x, and it's not that bad an idea, IMO.
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