Troll Lord Games

I really dislike the concept that successful healing from an Illusionist requires a failed Intelligence roll. I think a better solution would be for the "patient" to make some sort of Willpower roll, in effect "willing" their bodies to heal with the Illusionist's help. Thoughts?

I think it's in keeping with every single other Illusion requiring a save. So, considered in that regard, it works.

Mind you, there is also no Willpower roll native to C&C to begin with.
Really, it is the skill of the Illusionist in trying to convey the belief that the spell is actually working. If you don't like the failed roll concept, maybe the Illusionist needs to make a check to see whether or not the Illusion is convincing enough for the recipient to suspend any disbelief. Challenge Base + level or hitdice of recipient.

M
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moriarty777 wrote:
I think it's in keeping with every single other Illusion requiring a save. So, considered in that regard, it works.

The problem is that you have to fail the save. If the idea is that the illusionist is manipulating your mind to make your body heal, then the INT save has huge flaws, because even the dimmest party member knows the healing isn't "real," and would probably have a harder time believing in it with every new attempt. Therefore, I think a willpower roll based on perhaps the average of WIS and CHA seems better; the patient is willing himself, with the illusionist's help, to heal.

moriarty777 wrote:
Mind you, there is also no Willpower roll native to C&C to begin with.

See above.

[/quote]

vivsavage wrote:
I really dislike the concept that successful healing from an Illusionist requires a failed Intelligence roll. I think a better solution would be for the "patient" to make some sort of Willpower roll, in effect "willing" their bodies to heal with the Illusionist's help. Thoughts?

So look at it as being a Willpower rule, and in order to convince themselves the magic they know is "fake" is real, they have to will themselves to believe it by failing the check. Same thing, just different way of looking at it.
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Treebore wrote:
So look at it as being a Willpower rule, and in order to convince themselves the magic they know is "fake" is real, they have to will themselves to believe it by failing the check. Same thing, just different way of looking at it.

I'm just not keen on a failed check for anything being a good thing. That's why I want a successful will save versus a failed intelligence save.

vivsavage wrote:
I'm just not keen on a failed check for anything being a good thing. That's why I want a successful will save versus a failed intelligence save.

Nothing stopping you from doing it that way either, C&C is all about making it the game you like.

I don't like C&C as is, if I did I wouldn't have the house rules document I have, but I have made it into my perfect game.

So change whatever you don't like into something you do like, its worth it when its finally perfect.
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Treebore wrote:
Nothing stopping you from doing it that way either, C&C is all about making it the game you like.

I don't like C&C as is, if I did I wouldn't have the house rules document I have, but I have made it into my perfect game.

So change whatever you don't like into something you do like, its worth it when its finally perfect.

That's why C&C and Dragon Warriors are my games of choice.

vivsavage wrote:
The problem is that you have to fail the save. If the idea is that the illusionist is manipulating your mind to make your body heal, then the INT save has huge flaws, because even the dimmest party member knows the healing isn't "real," and would probably have a harder time believing in it with every new attempt. Therefore, I think a willpower roll based on perhaps the average of WIS and CHA seems better; the patient is willing himself, with the illusionist's help, to heal.



See above.

Ah... well that's a whole different issue then. Is it just an illusion? The Illusionist has had a bit of a shift in terms of the flavor. Ask yourself these questions... can the Illusionist cast this spell on himself? How do you reconcile other spells like Dragon Mount? The dragon may be an illusion but what of the force behind it? What about the spells of Minor and Major Creation which are *not* illusions?

Is there a component of the mind involved? The answer is yes which is why all illusions require the target to fail their save for it to work. It's a single concept that is applied across the board which I personally favor. Makes it simple you know?

I understand you wanting to stress the willpower aspect as opposed to a simple question of failed disbelief. Borrowing the Willpower concept from 3.x may not be the 'best' solution (and this is just opinion). Yes... Cha and Wis would be the makeup for Willpower... as Str and Con could be Fortitude and Dex and Int could be Reflex. If you do decide to use Willpower... how would you integrate Primes? What if one stat was prime and the other was not... a bonus of +3 as opposed to +6 (or a base of 15 as opposed to 12)?

It can be done but, I think it adds a level of un-necessary complexity. But really, that's more of a preference thing to. It would work.

Here's a question... would you apply Willpower to some of the other Illusions? Healing may be a measure of Willpower to 'wanting' it to work but if they refuse to believe that it could, it means an automatic fail. That makes sense... Would you use Willpower to believe that what else you are seeing is not really there? Sure that would work to.

But, to a small degree that's exactly the same reversals present with the current saves already present. You're using Willpower to believe that something is working and 'there' as opposed to using Willpower to believe something is 'not there'. Choosing to believe in an effect as opposed to disbelieving in another.

I do get what your saying... 'failing' in order to achieve a good result seems counter-intuitive. I personally wouldn't tack on a mechanic just to resolve this issue. However, this is why I suggested my earlier suggestion in terms of the Illusionist making a successful spell check. If feel the need of the recipient's participation in this process due to the nature of the spell, add on the target recipients Int modifier to 'assist' in the roll. Just another suggestion. Bottom line... your game so please feel free to do what works.

M
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Just get rid of check.
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PeelSeel2 wrote:
Just get rid of check.

Seconded.
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Peter Bradley

PeelSeel2 wrote:
Just get rid of check.

Just get rid of the spell.

Seriously (well, I kindo of was serious...), I just change out the spells. I've already removed them from the illusionist list and replaced them with other spells (mostly coming from the 3.5 D&D Spell Compendium). But to each their own!
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Since hitpoints are an abstract concept anyway. Consider this mechanic.

The illusionist creates a feeling a restfulness and vigor leading the recipient to feel more energy and more able to fight. (think of the magic working on sense of touch/sensation) However the physical damage is untouched.

To accomodate this, cut illusionist healing by 50% but no save is required.

vivsavage wrote:
That's why C&C and Dragon Warriors are my games of choice.

And when you add them together...that there is some good gaming.

Gundoggy wrote:
Since hitpoints are an abstract concept anyway. Consider this mechanic.

The illusionist creates a feeling a restfulness and vigor leading the recipient to feel more energy and more able to fight. (think of the magic working on sense of touch/sensation) However the physical damage is untouched.

Excellent. I now have a new way to explain to players the reasoning behind illusionist healing magic in my campaigns.

*ding* [gundoggy excellent sauce of the day award]

~O
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vivsavage wrote:
The problem is that you have to fail the save. If the idea is that the illusionist is manipulating your mind to make your body heal, then the INT save has huge flaws, because even the dimmest party member knows the healing isn't "real," and would probably have a harder time believing in it with every new attempt. Therefore, I think a willpower roll based on perhaps the average of WIS and CHA seems better; the patient is willing himself, with the illusionist's help, to heal.

So instead of healing being done as a matter of faith through divine intervention, it's taking advantage of (basically) a placebo effect. If the patient doesn't know he's getting a sugar pill but feels better in his own being, he's failed his INT save. What's so tough about that?

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
So instead of healing being done as a matter of faith through divine intervention, it's taking advantage of (basically) a placebo effect. If the patient doesn't know he's getting a sugar pill but feels better in his own being, he's failed his INT save. What's so tough about that?

"Hello, I'm Dr. Placebo. You know me--I'm the guy that gives out fake medicine. Here's your sugar pill. I'm sure you'll feel a lot better!"

The trouble with that analogy is that the person who takes the placebo doesn't know it's fake. The person getting healed by the illusionist does know that the spells are, well, illusions.

dunbruha wrote:
[The person getting healed by the illusionist does know that the spells are, well, illusions.

Says who?

If the healing recipient doesn't know the illusionist is an illusionist, how would they know the spell doesn't work?
In the case of this class or any other, the assumption of meta-knowledge is not an effective means of considering this problem.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
Says who?

If the healing recipient doesn't know the illusionist is an illusionist, how would they know the spell doesn't work?
In the case of this class or any other, the assumption of meta-knowledge is not an effective means of considering this problem.

Well, true, but meta-knowledge isn't required. The characters will have seen the results of the spells that a spellcaster IN THEIR OWN PARTY has cast. They know that they are phantasms, glamors (whatever they might call them).

So there's a different mechanic here than we've ever really seen before. Big deal. As a player, I'll welcome the extra healing in a party any day of the week. It's up to the player running the illusionist to play that character convincingly. Maybe he is a member of the faithful of a god of healing. Perhaps she is a washout of the clergy and wants to serve that deity. Maybe the individual is a complete charlatan, or the proverbial snake oil salesman. However the character is built, if it's played effectively, everybody has fun. So what if the healing effects come from divine power or a mind screw? As long as my HP get out of that critical range, I'm happy. I don't really care if somebody has high Spellcraft...oh wait, C&C outgrew those "skill" things.

I'm looking forward to playing an illusionist just so I can play off some of these effects to players. Call it what you will, but illusion healing can be mind-over-matter, quasi-real shadow stuff, or flat-out arcane healing. Whatever way you explain this, it is an interesting form of magic that should be great fun to play.

~O
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Omote wrote:
I'm looking forward to playing an illusionist just so I can play off some of these effects to players. Call it what you will, but illusion healing can be mind-over-matter, quasi-real shadow stuff, or flat-out arcane healing. Whatever way you explain this, it is an interesting form of magic that should be great fun to play.

~O

+1, O. Well said.

dunbruha wrote:
Well, true, but meta-knowledge isn't required. The characters will have seen the results of the spells that a spellcaster IN THEIR OWN PARTY has cast. They know that they are phantasms, glamors (whatever they might call them).

That doesn't mean the characters are going to understand the objective differences between various types of magic. This is where meta-knowledge comes in. The player is not thinking like a person who is steeped in a culture where magic is available. If that character is not taught magical distinctions, its all going to be of one piece. Magic is a source of wonder and can accomplish anything.
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Peter Bradley

See it this way if it helps.

The illusionist magic gets substance from both the caster and receiver, making it real. That is what makes illusions work. If you believe it, and the caster has cast it right, IT IS REAL! Just as real as divine healing, just as real as a wall of stone. The magic uses your senses as material components in the casting.
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If I'm an illusionist, I'm sure as hell not going to go around proclaiming to the world, "Hi, I'm an illusionist! My entire life/career is built on lies and screwing with your feeble little mind!" It'd be inviting a member of the assassin's guild to dispatch me in short order. No thanks.

I'd rather be the guy about whom everybody says, "Whoa, how'd he do that? He can't do that! He's not powerful enough. Is he?"

I don't play a class. I play a character. I don't crunch numbers. I build a persona.

Most every Illusionist spell allows a save versus int. Remember, however, that any recipient of a spell can forgo a save if they want to. 1.4 PHB p.54, first column, 2/3 of the way down.

So if your fine with illusionists healing as a DM, and your a player that wants to get healed, forego your saving roll!

I tell you, personally, I have always HATED illusionists (along with GNOMES!). With the the 4th printing of C&C, I am finding myself really liking illusionists. Really, for the first time ever, I am seeing them as more than a real wimpy wizard. They have their own class now. Mechanics wise, very little has changed. But fluff wise, with clarifications on the illusionist magic, and the hint of effect the new spells give, I can really picture how they are different than the wizard. Every edition of D&D with the Illusionist class has made them unappealing to me (4e D&D did a good job with Illusion 'effects', opening up my eyes on 'illusion' magic).

With C&C, the illusionist has come into it's own. C&C has cemented for me a different view of illusion magic. P.50 of the 1.4 PHB did a good job at that.

I would like to see a player roll one up! Maybe even make one a gnome!!
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vivsavage wrote:
I really dislike the concept that successful healing from an Illusionist requires a failed Intelligence roll. I think a better solution would be for the "patient" to make some sort of Willpower roll, in effect "willing" their bodies to heal with the Illusionist's help. Thoughts?

When I heard that TLG had rejigged Illusionists to be able to heal in the 4th print PHB, I decided that I wouldn't be buying it. They may have fixed the Barbarian and monk, but it looks to me like they broke the Illusionist. Why, oh why did they make illusionists heal? I know that sounds harsh, but what you just described above makes me go.... HUH?!?!?!?!

The only problem I have with the general notion to the changes is how one goes about to define an illusionist as compared to a wizard since I think that 'clear and concise' definition is a bit muddled now.

M
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PeelSeel2 wrote:
Most every Illusionist spell allows a save versus int. Remember, however, that any recipient of a spell can forgo a save if they want to. 1.4 PHB p.54, first column, 2/3 of the way down.

So if your fine with illusionists healing as a DM, and your a player that wants to get healed, forego your saving roll!

If it's an illusion and if the target is unconscious, they wouldn't get a save. However, here's the problem: if the target is unconscious, how would they be affected by an illusion in the first place.

If they are affected regardless, then it isn't an illusion and they don't need a save. It also further muddles what the definition of an illusionist is supposed to be.

I'm on both sides of the fence with some of these changes. While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the notion getting healing spells, the notion needs a bit further thought.

Also, if the Illusionist is now on par with the Wizard, then the EPP progression should be at the very least identical to the Wizard. As it stands right now, the Illusionist gets a break after so-many levels. The Illusionist also gets a skill-like ability which previously was thought to compensate for a smaller spell-list. Not the case any longer there either.

M
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moriarty777 wrote:
The only problem I have with the general notion to the changes is how one goes about to define an illusionist as compared to a wizard since I think that 'clear and concise' definition is a bit muddled now.

M

My only problem is that there is no precedent for non-cleric/druid/paladin spell casters to have healing spells. Nowhere in 0e/1e/2e and maybe even 3e/4e (not sure on those) is there a core rules precedent for wizards or illusionists to heal...

Birthright wrote:
My only problem is that there is no precedent for non-cleric/druid/paladin spell casters to have healing spells. Nowhere in 0e/1e/2e and maybe even 3e/4e (not sure on those) is there a core rules precedent for wizards or illusionists to heal...

For me, that isn't so much of an issue. I rather have a rationale behind certain design choices. I won't lie though -- at first I was to resistant to the notion on principle. I'm all for giving the Illusionist a bit more versatility too but I'm not sure if it was needed.

Considering the nature of illusions, there is no reason that this class now having access to those spells need to present a problem. If an illusionist can fool someone into thinking that he just launched a fireball, then the same can be said of healing spells or any other visible spell effect. The question you have to determine is how you want these illusions to mechanically affect your game.

However, assuming for a moment that you stick with the third printing. How would you handle an Illusionist who is passing themselves as a cleric but casts 'Major Image' to replicate the visible effects of a cure light wounds spell?

Which ever method you decide for this should be consistent with these new additions. For the most part, a lot of the new spells are things that could be replicated with a spell like Major Image anyway.

M
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