This thread shows what is one of the greatest things about C&C, you have a dozen different posters with a dozen different ideas on the same thing, and nobody is yelling about who is right and who is wrong, you make C&C what your want it to be.
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!
C&C Monsters
-
trunkmonkee1971
- Henchman
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:00 am
C&C Monsters.
Just keep in mind that the attribute bonus progression is not exactly the same as D&D 3rd ed. C&C Bonuses start @ +1 for a stat of thirteen 13 to 15, +2
for 16-17 etc. This is subtle but it does make a difference when coverting from 3rd edition syle stat blocks. That errant difference of +/- one could make a big difference.
I do like the way Monsters are handled in C&C though. It is basically AD&D style.
for 16-17 etc. This is subtle but it does make a difference when coverting from 3rd edition syle stat blocks. That errant difference of +/- one could make a big difference.
I do like the way Monsters are handled in C&C though. It is basically AD&D style.
It is taking some time for me to readjust to the AD&D style of monsters. Like when an ogre uses a weapon, it makes no mention of whether the weapon does more damage because it's large sized, or if there is any additional bonus for the ogre's strength. So, it's just normal weapon damage unless the DM does the adjusting himself.
Dristram wrote:
It is taking some time for me to readjust to the AD&D style of monsters. Like when an ogre uses a weapon, it makes no mention of whether the weapon does more damage because it's large sized, or if there is any additional bonus for the ogre's strength. So, it's just normal weapon damage unless the DM does the adjusting himself.
btb yes, monsters do just the listed damage. IMC I give ogres a +3 damage when using a weapon.
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!
For ability checks I take the save category (P, M or B) and use that to determine primes like it says and then give them a modifier equal to their Hit Dice.
Example:
A Bugbear has 3HD and Physical saves, so it gets +3 on STR, DEX and CON checks. INT , WIS and CHA are with no modifier...
Seems to work well and is fairly intuitive
_________________
Example:
A Bugbear has 3HD and Physical saves, so it gets +3 on STR, DEX and CON checks. INT , WIS and CHA are with no modifier...
Seems to work well and is fairly intuitive
_________________
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Dristram wrote:
It is? Is that written somewhere and I missed it?
Its implied in several places.
One of which is under the HIT DICE (HD) Category on page 4 of the M&T.
"The hit dice is the equivalent of the monsters level"
"The monsters HD is also the equivalent to the monsters base attack roll modifier."
And since it mentions on page 112 of the PHB, under Saving Throws..
"A saving throw is an attribute check" In which one adds level
"Monster saving throws function in the same manner, with this caveat; monsters and creatures have lumped primary and secondary attributes..."
Granted, it should be spelled out better, but it's in there.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Oh, okay, for checks I see it and have done it that way. But what about damage? Nothing is mentioned about a bonus to damage, or is there?
If I were to lets say, give a +3 damage to an ogre, that would mean a +3 to strength checks as well, giving a total of +7 because of the HD. And also a +7 to attacks. That's messy.
I find it strange that I thought nothing of a 1e ogre not doing +6 to damage (i.e. gauntlets of ogre power) with a normal weapon, but ever since 3e, I'm having a problem with it.
If I were to lets say, give a +3 damage to an ogre, that would mean a +3 to strength checks as well, giving a total of +7 because of the HD. And also a +7 to attacks. That's messy.
I find it strange that I thought nothing of a 1e ogre not doing +6 to damage (i.e. gauntlets of ogre power) with a normal weapon, but ever since 3e, I'm having a problem with it.
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Dristram wrote:
Oh, okay, for checks I see it and have done it that way. But what about damage? Nothing is mentioned about a bonus to damage, or is there?
If I were to lets say, give a +3 damage to an ogre, that would mean a +3 to strength checks as well, giving a total of +7 because of the HD. And also a +7 to attacks. That's messy.
I find it strange that I thought nothing of a 1e ogre not doing +6 to damage (i.e. gauntlets of ogre power) with a normal weapon, but ever since 3e, I'm having a problem with it.
No. An Ogre would be a +4 to hit, +4 to STR checks, and +4 to damage since since they are 4 HD critters.
Page 8 PHB Attribute modifiers:"The amount of damage delivered to a foe is likewise affected by the attribute modifier"
Just bring that over to work the same way the HD mod works for monsters and tis all good.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
If you want to use 3.x monsters, and are worried about the "stat" issue, then give the players 3.x stats (+1 12-13, +2 14-15, etc). It would be easier than restating 3.x monsters, and make the characters better able to handle 3.x monsters.
Personally, I'd rather just use my stacks of old 2E monsters!
Personally, I'd rather just use my stacks of old 2E monsters!
I could do this and be fine with it. But it doesn't mesh with the way character classes work.gideon_thorne wrote:
No. An Ogre would be a +4 to hit, +4 to STR checks, and +4 to damage since since they are 4 HD critters.
Page 8 PHB Attribute modifiers:"The amount of damage delivered to a foe is likewise affected by the attribute modifier"
Just bring that over to work the same way the HD mod works for monsters and tis all good.
For instance, take a 4th level fighter with 12 strength. He gets +4 to attack and +4 to strength checks even though he has no strength modifier. If he had a strength high enough to give him a +4 to damage, then he'd also add a +4 to his attack and strength checks for a total of +8.
What you're telling me is monsters, unlike characters, gain bonuses to damage from HD, not strength. So, monsters work differently than classes. I was essentially treating HD like levels. What I need to do is treat monsters as 0-level that are just tough and have a high amount of hit points deemed from multiple HD. And the HD represents their prime abilitiy scores and thus modifiers.
That said, it also means an ogre would get a +4 to dexterity and constitution checks. That's a fast ogre.
One last check. A Hill Giant lists its great club as doing 2d8 damage. Should I then add +9 to damage for a total of 2d8+9?
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Dristram wrote:
I could do this and be fine with it. But it doesn't mesh with the way character classes work.
For instance, take a 4th level fighter with 12 strength. He gets +4 to attack and +4 to strength checks even though he has no strength modifier. If he had a strength high enough to give him a +4 to damage, then he'd also add a +4 to his attack and strength checks for a total of +8.
What you're telling me is monsters, unlike characters, gain bonuses to damage from HD, not strength. So, monsters work differently than classes. I was essentially treating HD like levels. What I need to do is treat monsters as 0-level that are just tough and have a high amount of hit points deemed from multiple HD. And the HD represents their prime abilitiy scores and thus modifiers.
That said, it also means an ogre would get a +4 to dexterity and constitution checks. That's a fast ogre.
Yes. Monsters work differently than characters. Thats intentional. One should just assume that the number of HD in a monster subsumes stat bonus's, level, save mods and other such things. The same basic 'attribute check' and whatnot is still there though.
Monsters are supposed to be tough. And yes, a 4th level fighter with an 18 STR is going to be capable of major ass kickery, as he should be.
Quote:
One last check. A Hill Giant lists its great club as doing 2d8 damage. Should I then add +9 to damage for a total of 2d8+9?
Yes +9 to hit/ +9 to damage. *smiles* Splat one first level character who goes up against one.
Course it should be noted that some creatures operate via various 'exceptions' to the universal rule. Some magic items list Giant strength damage bonus's and I believe Dragons and other critters have their own little quirks as well. So, there is room for interpretation.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
-
moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
- Posts: 3735
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Ok... having read the past few posts, one of my eyes have started to twitch.
I acknowledge and use the following. HD determines level which is also determines bonus to hit and bonus to saves. That's clearly written in the books.
I acknowledge and use the following. Stats are lumped into Physical or Mental categories to indicate which are Prime. This affects the TN you have to beat when you have to make a save or do some other attribute related skill check. Or, IMC the TN is the same regardless but a Prime stat gives you +6.
However, adding a creatures HD (level) number to determine DMG bonus seems a bit extreme at higher levels.
Don't get me wrong, there are times where I have a stronger opponent of that creature type and tag on a Str bonus. The way I see it (and I believe I stated before), I see the creatures as presented are average for their type. That means a CK can feel free to tone up or down the creature to suit his need.
Of course, the applying HD (level) as a bonus to damage might be an interesting thing to consider with certain things like Giants or a Tarrasque! I had never thought of it quite that way before. I still think it's a bit extreme though!
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
I acknowledge and use the following. HD determines level which is also determines bonus to hit and bonus to saves. That's clearly written in the books.
I acknowledge and use the following. Stats are lumped into Physical or Mental categories to indicate which are Prime. This affects the TN you have to beat when you have to make a save or do some other attribute related skill check. Or, IMC the TN is the same regardless but a Prime stat gives you +6.
However, adding a creatures HD (level) number to determine DMG bonus seems a bit extreme at higher levels.
Don't get me wrong, there are times where I have a stronger opponent of that creature type and tag on a Str bonus. The way I see it (and I believe I stated before), I see the creatures as presented are average for their type. That means a CK can feel free to tone up or down the creature to suit his need.
Of course, the applying HD (level) as a bonus to damage might be an interesting thing to consider with certain things like Giants or a Tarrasque! I had never thought of it quite that way before. I still think it's a bit extreme though!
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
Actually, I'm only adding STR bonus to damage when a creature uses a weapon. I'm using natural attack damage as is. I figure the natural strength of the creature is figured in to the natural attack damage.
So, when it says, "or by weapon", I'll pick a weapon and add the HD to damage bonus. Or in the case of some creatures that list a special weapon like a huge club, I'll just add the damage bonus to that.
So, when it says, "or by weapon", I'll pick a weapon and add the HD to damage bonus. Or in the case of some creatures that list a special weapon like a huge club, I'll just add the damage bonus to that.
Monsters do not add HD to damage unless it says they add HD to damage. The creatures that are very strong typically have multiple dice of damage inflicted, like 3d6, or more. They also tend to hit often (high HD) and have multiple attacks. Also, unlike parties, there are usually lots and lots of them around...
Adding HD to damage delivered by every monster makes them far too deadly. A 15 HD giant with 2 attacks would be absolutely devastating to a party... with high odds of TPK. If that's what you want, then go for it. I prefer a fight, but not one that cannot be won without the reliance on the same tactic every encounter (in this case, a "death effect" or "charm monster" spell) which makes an exciting game of strategy and roleplay into a rinse-and-repeat game of boredom.
Adding HD to damage delivered by every monster makes them far too deadly. A 15 HD giant with 2 attacks would be absolutely devastating to a party... with high odds of TPK. If that's what you want, then go for it. I prefer a fight, but not one that cannot be won without the reliance on the same tactic every encounter (in this case, a "death effect" or "charm monster" spell) which makes an exciting game of strategy and roleplay into a rinse-and-repeat game of boredom.
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
serleran wrote:
Adding HD to damage delivered by every monster makes them far too deadly. A 15 HD giant with 2 attacks would be absolutely devastating to a party... with high odds of TPK. I
This is why you remember the immortal words of Monty Python..
"Runn awaaayyy run away."
Sure, the damage can be devistating, when characters are low level. But the low level character ought to have the wits to pick their battles anyhow.
A mid range party would have less trouble with the above mentioned giant. But it still the same truism. Not every encounter has to be 'fought'. Most can be avoided.
This is also a topic that makes a good case for ranged attacks. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
IF I was to give a monster strength bonuses I'd do this:
Giants get the STR that they should have according to a Belt of Giant Strength, and Ogres the same as gauntlets of ogre power.
Other monsters will get 3d6 with a negative or bonus based on size (ad hoc).
I'd consider all monsters (other than maybe giants, ogres, etc - classic D&D monsters with a strength stat already given) to just have average stats. If you need a stat, it can be rolled, but only for Specific/Important monsters that are unique...
But hey, that's me...
Giants get the STR that they should have according to a Belt of Giant Strength, and Ogres the same as gauntlets of ogre power.
Other monsters will get 3d6 with a negative or bonus based on size (ad hoc).
I'd consider all monsters (other than maybe giants, ogres, etc - classic D&D monsters with a strength stat already given) to just have average stats. If you need a stat, it can be rolled, but only for Specific/Important monsters that are unique...
But hey, that's me...
D'oh! Gideon had me convinced and I thought you and he were on the same page. You state what I initially thought. So now I'm back to HD equals bonus to damage as a house rule?serleran wrote:
Monsters do not add HD to damage unless it says they add HD to damage.
Serl, so your fine with an ogre--an ogre--wielding a long sword only doing a straight d8 damage when he hits? Or do you house rule extra damage for it being an ogre?
Dristram wrote:
D'oh! Gideon had me convinced and I thought you and he were on the same page. You state what I initially thought. So now I'm back to HD equals bonus to damage as a house rule?
If you are going to do this, I'd highly recommend that PC's get their BtH as a damage bonus as well as a to-hit bonus.
Quote:
Serl, so your fine with an ogre--an ogre--wielding a long sword only doing a straight d8 damage when he hits? Or do you house rule extra damage for it being an ogre?
At the level an ogre is typically encountered, and presumed to be a threat, yes... I am fine with it dealing a straight d8. It will hit more often, and have baddies alongside it, as well, as the number appearing isn't often one.
Oh, and because the ogre is so large, it would be able to wield two long swords without penalty, and, could, in fact, do so with regular human weapons such as a greatsword or bearded axe... making the ogre an extremely potent death-maker.
That said, all large creatures, in my games, can hit areas... and not always a single creature. For example, if you're in close formation (lsay 5 feet apart) the ogre can attack with its club, and hit everyone in the area, like an area effect attack. This makes them far more devastating.
Maybe an ogre should be treated as a Giant when it comes to weapons (going off the errata here: http://cncplayer.net/download/mterrata.pdf). Say one step below a hill giant, as that would make sense.
BTW, this m&t errata needs a lot more updates...
BTW, this m&t errata needs a lot more updates...
phadeout wrote:
BTW, this m&t errata needs a lot more updates...
As the guy who compiled the errata, if you have stuff you believe to BE errata, by all means PM me. I've actually got a little time to myself tonight and have the PHB errata to update anyway, so what's one more document?
But...I also look for the official word on anything I place into EITHER document, so if the official word is that your errata isn't errata, it's going to get removed.
These guys are the official word...
Steve, Davis, Mac, Pete (gideon_thorne), and Robert (serleran).
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.
Traveller wrote:
As the guy who compiled the errata, if you have stuff you believe to BE errata, by all means PM me. I've actually got a little time to myself tonight and have the PHB errata to update anyway, so what's one more document?
But...I also look for the official word on anything I place into EITHER document, so if the official word is that your errata isn't errata, it's going to get removed.
These guys are the official word...
Steve, Davis, Mac, Pete (gideon_thorne), and Robert (serleran).
Traveller, cool. Yeah, I have a bunch of stuff from Robert that is "basically" errata (I'll explain in PM). I'll send you a PM after I compile it a bit better and find some links...
I apologize phadeout if I sounded hostile. Such was not my intention.
It's due to discussions like this that the kinks get worked out. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that it's because of you guys finding this stuff out that anything happens on the errata front.
I'm just the compiler (and occasional contributor).
PM me when you're ready and I'll see about adding it all together.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.
It's due to discussions like this that the kinks get worked out. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that it's because of you guys finding this stuff out that anything happens on the errata front.
I'm just the compiler (and occasional contributor).
PM me when you're ready and I'll see about adding it all together.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.