Towards More Historically Accurate Magic - Feedback Sought

[clavis123]

The following is an attempt at a magic system that is more reflective of folklore, legend, and the actual magical literature of the Middle Ages. It's still very much a work in progress, and definitely needs refinement.

The system still uses the standard spells, and the maximum spell level usable by character Level. A spell-user does not memorize spells, although they must still learn spells and record them in a book. The standard Verbal, Somatic, and Material spell components are not utilized. To replicate historical magic, the method of casting a spell is separated from the spell's effect. Each spell that a magician learns will employ a specific Method of use. For instance, the magician doesn't just learn the Sleep spell, he learns a "Sleep" Incantation, or a "Sleep" Ritual. The magician does not know how to use a "Sleep" Incantation just because he knows how to use a "Sleep" Ritual. Each Method of enacting a spell is effectively a separate spell, and must be acquired and learned separately. Each method has its own advantages and drawbacks. The power of a magician is limited by the constraints of the methods he employs, rather than a memorization or spell-point mechanic.

One of the factors of historical magic that I've tried to take into account is that it was very much tied to time and place. Certain things couldn't be done at certain times, or in certain places, due to such things as the influence of the stars.

Under this system, an adventuring wizard might be wearing a "Protection From Arrows" Talisman that protects him constantly, have 2 doses of a "Comprehend Languages" Drug, have ready a somewhat unreliable "Charm Person" Incantation, be protected from a single fall by a "Feather Fall" Sacrifice he made to the Sky God earlier in the day, be ready to perform an "Identify" Ritual if given enough time, know a "Change Self" Prayer just in case, and have an "Invisibility" Pact in reserve if he gets desperate and is willing to pay its price.

Obviously, some spells only exist in forms that utilize certain Methods. I will still have to work out which Methods are appropriate for which spells. Some combinations certainly would need to be prohibited for game balance reasons. Such a prohibited spell would be a Fireball Talisman, for example.

One thing that would be more in tune with folklore would be to give wizards the ability to use some true healing spells. That might mean a complete rethink of all the spellcasting classes, however.

The Methods of Magic

Drug

The magician creates the effect by combining strange substances together to form an alchemical Drug, usually in the form of a pill, powder, or small amount of liquid. When the Drug is later ingested (or inhaled), the subject is empowered to use the spell's effect (or will suffer the spell's effect, in the case of offensive magic). An alchemical Drug differs from a magical potion in that it can only be used by the person it was intended for. Obviously, an alchemical Drug can only be used once. Preparing a spell effect as a Drug takes 1 day per spell level. The Drug will utilize vegetable, mineral, and animal parts with a total value in gold pieces and experience points equal to 10 times the spell's level squared. For example, a "Levitate" Drug (Second level) might need a piece of Imp heart, plus 10 gp worth of rare herbs and powdered stones, for a total point value of 40 (10 times the square of 2).

Pact

The power to create the spell's effect is loaned to the caster from an extraplaner source, who will demand payment for every use. The terms of payment demanded differ from creature to creature, but usually involved the gradual degradation of the magician's abilities and resources. A typical pact might cause the magician to lose a point of Constitution per spell Level for a day, or 1d4 hit points per spell Level. Sometimes the powers will demand that the magician perform a specific act in order to activate the spell's power, or specify that the spell can only be cast for certain uses. Because each Pact is unique, a magician can only learn a Pact spell by dealing directly with the creature that is the source of its power. Generally, an extraplaner creature can grant spells that replicate its own abilities. A magician can use a Pact spell as often as they like, provided they are willing to pay the price each time.

Incantation

The spell is effected by use of magically potent words, or else spontaneous poetry that states the desired effect. Incantations do not cost money or utilize hard-to acquire materials. Because they are artistic in nature, however, they can easily fail. Using an Incantation require an Intelligence check. The Challenge Level is equal to three time the Level of the Spell + 5. A roll of 1 will always fail. For example, the Challenge Level to cast a 5th Level spell is 15. An Incantation attempt takes the length of time specified as the casting time of the spell, although it is usual for a magician to continue attempting an Incantation until success. For example, if the listed casting time of a spell is 2, the magician rolls for possible success every two rounds.

Talisman

The spell is bound into an object, which when put in contact with a subject confers an effect constantly. For instance, a "Shield" Talisman provides the constant protection of the Shield spell. A Talisman must be made for a particular person, object or place, and will have absolutely no effect on anybody or anything else. A magician can only have one Talisman active at a time. Every time a magician makes a new Talisman, all other Talismans created by that magician are deactivated. A Talisman can only be made at certain times and in certain places. In game terms, there is only a 1 in 10 chance that a particular Talisman can be made at a particular time and place. (This roll can be made in advance to determine when a Talisman can be created.) Activating a Talisman takes 1 hour per spell Level, and requires rare materials worth 100 times the square of the spell's Level. For example, the Talisman of a 6th level spell requires materials with a total value of 2,400, in terms of gold pieces and/or the experience point value of needed monsters. If anyone other than the Talisman's maker or its subject touches a Talisman, it is instantly deactivated. A Talisman only retains its effect for one month.

Ritual

By performing a series of symbolic actions the magician creates the effect of the spell. Rituals are limited in the times and places they can be performed. Assume that there is a 1 in 10 chance that a ritual can be performed on a desired day and in a particular place. (This roll can be made in advance to determine when a Ritual can be performed.) Failure represents that the stars are wrong, it's the wrong moon phase, the weather is inappropriate, etc. Rituals require half an hour per spell level to perform, and require materials worth 10 times the spell's level squared. The big advantage of Rituals, however, is that they allow spell effects to occur outside of sensory range, as long as the magician has a piece of the person or place that will serve as the point of origination for the spell's effect. Thus, Ritual spells can be used to attack enemies that are halfway around the world.

Sacrifice

By performing a sacrifice to a Divine or extraplaner creature in a specified manner, the caster can possibly empower a one-time effect in the present or future. A Sacrifice spell requires the user to slay a specific type of creature or creatures whose hit dice total twice the spell's Level. The caster specifies under what circumstances the spell is to take effect. (for example, immediately, when the user is damaged, or if the party falls into a pit). The caster then makes a Charisma check to see if the Sacrifice was accepted, with the Challenge Level being 3 times the spell's Level. A roll of 1 will always fail. A separate Sacrifice must be made for each single effect desired.

Prayer

Prayers are the easiest and least dangerous type of spell. A Prayer spell is similar to an Incantation, but is a request to a Divine power, rather than a demand. If the God hears the Prayer they will grant it, but not all Prayers are heard. The user of a Prayer must make a Wisdom check, with a Challenge Level equal to three time the Level of the Spell. A roll of 1 will always fail. A Prayer takes as long to say as the stated casting time for a spell. Once a Prayer is answered, it cannot be used again for as many Turns as its spell Level.

[koralas]

clavis, interesting...

In some ways similar to what one group I was playing with was thinking of doing, following, and expanding on the magic system used in Hardy's Master of Five Magics book. (See here for info on the book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_the_Five_Magics)

In our working back then, we would have had-

Thaumaturge - On demand rituals, oft with prepared components, kind of like incantation as you have below, but also required some sort of energy to draw from.

Alchemy - Like the drug system you have, with difficult rituals to create the potion, salves, or whatever

Magic - Very much ritual based like you have below, it creates the magic items, similar talismans as you list, rather than creating direct spell effects

Sorcery - no direct correlation to your system, "thrice spoken, once fufilled", focuses on illusion or mind control

Wizardry - Similar to your Pacts and Sacrafice, we had Pacts and Bindings, the difference is a Pact is willful on both parts, where a Binding has the other planar power acting against their will, and woe to the Wizard that fails to maintain control

[zombiehands]

Here are my thoughts:

Add color not rules and numbers(or as few as possible) Magic is not Mathematics!

Allow wizards to cast All spells at the lowest level they appear on the ANY class list.

Drop all other caster classes.

Dont limit the number of cast per day for wizards but keep the spell level cap. You only learn spells (talismans and incantations) by going up levels or as great treasureMaybe you can only know as many spells as show on the wizards cast per day (or something like that)

INCANTATION

Class any spell that is currently verbal only as an incantation. These must be learned once learned they can be used at will with a INT siege check. Go though and list all these spells as incantations. (Example: incantation of light

TALISMAN

Class any spell with a material component as Talisman. The recipe must be learned and the material component satisfied and INT check is required at activation to see if it worked. Go through these spells and make a list of talisman (Talsiman of Protection from evil)

Drop drug and keep the current rules for potion creation.

Drop pact, sacrifice, prayer instead have just ritual since all rituals were really summoning spirits and higher/lower powers anyway. Wizards dont do a prayer, thats for non-casters. Allow any spell to be cast via a ritual but there is pre-casting work.

Ritual might break down like this

1)Summon the power. Make this a CHR siege check with a level challenge equal the HD of the Power (or 2xspell level if you dont want to come up with a list of power name and the spells they can cast but why bother with all this house ruling?). Give a bonus for a sacrifice (food, drink, animal) maybe set a level bonus for them.

A real quick guideline as to what spirits can cast might be

Wizard spells come from demons/devils

Illusion spells come from faires

Druid spells come from nature spirits

Cleric spells come from good gods and angles

You can only summon nature spirits in stone rings under an open sky, summoning demons requires draining magical circles of salt and silver and blood sacrifice. Summoning good can only be done with a sacrifice of food and drink.

2)Request/Pay/or Bind the Spirit.

a.Request only work on spirits with the same goals as the wizards.

b.Payment (up to you but I would leave it very open ended spirits desire rather than GP, XP, HP) works for any power if the wizard is willing to pay the price.

c.Bind the spirit with psyche combat. Another CHR siege check with a level challenge equal to HD or Spell level x2. If the wizard fail he takes 1d4 damage per challenge level.

3) Spell acquisition. If step 2 was successful whatever the spell they were trying for they now have until they cast it.

You can keep all your formulas but dont burden the players with them. Use them as your guidelines or just play old school, what the CK says goes. Add color not rules and numbers.

You summon bezlabu with the sacrifice of a goat and he grants you The Sleep for the promise that you sacrifice of the targets of the spell to him. Is much cooler than it cost 150 GP and 10 XP to cast sleep IMHO

[clavis123]

zombiehands wrote:
Here are my thoughts:

Add color not rules and numbers(or as few as possible) Magic is not Mathematics!

I agree with this in spirit, but I think there may need to be a certain amount of basic math just to make the rules somewhat balanced. Also, traditional Western Occultism actually is extremely math-heavy. Pythagorean number symbolism is a major part of the system. Much of the Jewish Kabbalah is concerned with the mystical properties of numbers. Western magical rituals are usually dependent on Astrology, which in the times before computers meant doing very intricate calculations by hand.

zombiehands wrote:
Allow wizards to cast All spells at the lowest level they appear on the ANY class list.

I agree. Magicians in legend and folklore could heal.

zombiehands wrote:
Drop all other caster classes.

It's looking like that would be the way to represent historical magic. Clerics should perhaps be simply able to exercise a small number of miraculous abilities, strictly tied to the concerns of their deities. The Druid class is actually superfluous when you realize that "Druid" is simply how you say "wizard" in Old Irish. According to the Celts themselves, Druids weren't priests at all, but magicians.

zombiehands wrote:
Dont limit the number of cast per day for wizards but keep the spell level cap. You only learn spells (talismans and incantations) by going up levels or as great treasureMaybe you can only know as many spells as show on the wizards cast per day (or something like that)

Agreed.

zombiehands wrote:
INCANTATION

Class any spell that is currently verbal only as an incantation. These must be learned once learned they can be used at will with a INT siege check. Go though and list all these spells as incantations. (Example: incantation of light

I would probably need to included some spells that currently include somatic and material components. Incantations would need to be able to replicate Irish legends where Druids create potent magical effects by spontaneously composing poetry. Any effect actually created by such a method in legend should be possible in-game.

zombiehands wrote:
TALISMAN

Class any spell with a material component as Talisman. The recipe must be learned and the material component satisfied and INT check is required at activation to see if it worked. Go through these spells and make a list of talisman (Talisman of Protection from evil)

Again, what I'd need to do is go through the legends and occult books and actually see what talismans existed. The spells that correspond to the powers granted by historical talismans would be the ones that can be cast using the Talisman method.

zombiehands wrote:
Drop drug and keep the current rules for potion creation.

Possible. Drug creation and use is a major part of almost all occult traditions in the world. The Potion rules might be sufficient. Then again, part of me just thinks its appropriate to have 7 different methods of magic!

zombiehands wrote:
Drop pact, sacrifice, prayer instead have just ritual since all rituals were really summoning spirits and higher/lower powers anyway. Wizards dont do a prayer, thats for non-casters.

Funny thing is, the medieval Grimoires are filled with prayers. Typically, the magician might pray fervently to Jesus to grant him the power to raise demons. I'm not kidding. Also, I can't make all spells summoning, because not all Western magic is evocation of spirits. Celtic magic included a lot of drugs, and the aforementioned belief in the magical power of poetry. Medieval Jewish Kabbalists seemed to entertain notions that the actual arrangement of certain letters had inherent magical powers.

zombiehands wrote:
Allow any spell to be cast via a ritual but there is pre-casting work.

Ritual might break down like this

1)Summon the power. Make this a CHR siege check with a level challenge equal the HD of the Power (or 2xspell level if you dont want to come up with a list of power name and the spells they can cast but why bother with all this house ruling?). Give a bonus for a sacrifice (food, drink, animal) maybe set a level bonus for them.

A real quick guideline as to what spirits can cast might be

Wizard spells come from demons/devils

Illusion spells come from faires

Druid spells come from nature spirits

Cleric spells come from good gods and angles

You can only summon nature spirits in stone rings under an open sky, summoning demons requires draining magical circles of salt and silver and blood sacrifice. Summoning good can only be done with a sacrifice of food and drink.

Something to consider. Its relatively consistent with the lore.

zombiehands wrote:
2)Request/Pay/or Bind the Spirit.

a.Request only work on spirits with the same goals as the wizards.

b.Payment (up to you but I would leave it very open ended spirits desire rather than GP, XP, HP) works for any power if the wizard is willing to pay the price.

c.Bind the spirit with psyche combat. Another CHR siege check with a level challenge equal to HD or Spell level x2. If the wizard fail he takes 1d4 damage per challenge level.

3) Spell acquisition. If step 2 was successful whatever the spell they were trying for they now have until they cast it.

You can keep all your formulas but dont burden the players with them. Use them as your guidelines or just play old school, what the CK says goes.

Once again, something to consider.

zombiehands wrote:
Add color not rules and numbers.

You summon bezlabu with the sacrifice of a goat and he grants you The Sleep for the promise that you sacrifice of the targets of the spell to him. Is much cooler than it cost 150 GP and 10 XP to cast sleep IMHO

Definitely my preference, but I want to make a system that is fair, and that probably means some kind of math.

Anyway, thanks for the response. It's given me a lot to think about.

[clavis123]

koralas wrote:
clavis, interesting...

In some ways similar to what one group I was playing with was thinking of doing, following, and expanding on the magic system used in Hardy's Master of Five Magics book. (See here for info on the book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_the_Five_Magics)

In our working back then, we would have had-

Thaumaturge - On demand rituals, oft with prepared components, kind of like incantation as you have below, but also required some sort of energy to draw from.

Alchemy - Like the drug system you have, with difficult rituals to create the potion, salves, or whatever

Magic - Very much ritual based like you have below, it creates the magic items, similar talismans as you list, rather than creating direct spell effects

Sorcery - no direct correlation to your system, "thrice spoken, once fufilled", focuses on illusion or mind control

Wizardry - Similar to your Pacts and Sacrafice, we had Pacts and Bindings, the difference is a Pact is willful on both parts, where a Binding has the other planar power acting against their will, and woe to the Wizard that fails to maintain control

Thanks. I wasn't aware of Hardy's work. Sorcery seems to combine the old belief in the "Evil Eye" with the kind of spontaneous incantations seen in Celtic lore.

[ssfsx17]

What about Pacts that are based on knowing the power's true name? You might have to make a check to see if you can maintain your hold on the spirit, and if you roll a 1, well, he has not exactly been developing fondness for you in the past...
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[clavis123]

ssfsx17 wrote:
What about Pacts that are based on knowing the power's true name? You might have to make a check to see if you can maintain your hold on the spirit, and if you roll a 1, well, he has not exactly been developing fondness for you in the past...

I definitely think knowledge of "true names" should greatly impact dealing with spirits. It also creates opportunities for adventure, since recovering a "true name" should involve a long, dangerous quest.

[moriarty777]

Some interesting thoughts and arguements.

I believe comprehensive research may help dictate the direction you could explore. Aside from a basic primer such as Waite's Book of Ceremonial Magic which will give an overview of infamous grimoires, there are a few sources one could examine for free. I suggest this site:
http://www.esotericarchives.com/

Note that the majority of these material does in one form or another employ the angelic, demoic, and various names ascribed to god. The western current of occultism is pretty much built upon it all -- especially if you look at sources from the middleages and renaissance.

However, different periods of history in the west will have different systems of magic that you can also draw from. Also, the style of 'historical magic' should be appropriate to the campaign you wish to run. The rites of ancient greece or egypt would be different from those employed by the historical druids. Even the various methods of divination could be a fascinating study if you consider geomancy compared to something like the tarot or the runes.

If the focus is middle-ages / renaissance, then part of the key here is 'correspondences'. Planet... Color... Number... Archangel... Metal... etc...

If we look at Mythology, we already do this in our games... such as when you consider that you have certain deities for war, love, fertility, the arts... etc. Adding a elements to magic that employs a system of correspondenses is an obvious way to add depth to your game. You can probably add these elements in without wreaking havoc to the existing system already set up for C&C too. Much like incorporating the details in 'Of Gods & Monsters' is easy to do.

Hope this gives you a few ideas.

M
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Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[anonymous]

From what I read (some time ago now) on the subject of potions, the Drug rules (not sure about the term; it puts the wrong image in my head...) shouldn't confer the ability to cast a spell; I can't remember anything that did that. Instead, the effect of drinking a potion, rubbing on oil, etc. would be that the spell is cast on you. The range of the spell would become personal to the person using the concoction. Obviously this would mean some spells would not be applicable, while others would change in their effect: for instance a Fireball potion when drunk, might cause the imbiber to combust for xd6 damage and a Charm Person would be a sort of love potion.

[mordrene]

i recommend looking at epic rpg. they have mage 5 magic specialities that may help you with your ideas.

[koralas]

ssfsx17 wrote:
What about Pacts that are based on knowing the power's true name? You might have to make a check to see if you can maintain your hold on the spirit, and if you roll a 1, well, he has not exactly been developing fondness for you in the past...

Yup, this is what we considered a binding. It is most closely aligned with Hardy's Wizardry.

Pacts could be thought of, in many ways, as similar to the relationship of a cleric to their deity. Since this is a mutually beneficial relationship. I don't recall if we were going to replace the cleric with a wizard. The "medic" character was primarily a Thaumaturge. I know it sounds a bit strange, but if you read the book, it would make sense.

Bindings are forcing the being to do your will. And we had Will (wisdom) checks to see if the creature broke free, and if they did... let's just say the wizard would have a bad day, well maybe life, or perhaps even after-life...