I am running the siege of Felsentheim this week.
I plan to have a guest player run much of the evil army as I run the army reserves and support group.
Has anyone ran large battles before and do you have any suggestions?
I am getting jittery the closer we get to the game date.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
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Running Large Battles???
PM Bowbe or Sieg -- they both have systems for it. Bowbe's is supposed to be a stand-alone (as I hear it) with parts in the CKG... so, he may let you play test it. I know Sieg made his own, too, but no idea what happened to it or if it was completed. I had my own, as well, but I got bored with it and deleted the file(s). Of course, I don't know if either of them comes around much, but you might get a response.
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CKDad
- Master of the Kobold Raiders
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While not the full-blown system, there's some optional rules for grouping monsters into squads in module DB 5, "Dro Mandras - The Conquered East" that you might find helpful.
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I'm running the big battle tonight!
I think I'll just use the suggestion in the module and run the units at a 10:1 ratio.
My "assistant" bailed. Apparently he wants to ride quads along the Grand Canyon with his dad rather than grind my hapless gaming group under the merciless heels of tyrranny.
Silly human...
Wish me luck! or rather...wish the players luck...mua ah ha!
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
I think I'll just use the suggestion in the module and run the units at a 10:1 ratio.
My "assistant" bailed. Apparently he wants to ride quads along the Grand Canyon with his dad rather than grind my hapless gaming group under the merciless heels of tyrranny.
Silly human...
Wish me luck! or rather...wish the players luck...mua ah ha!
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
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LordSeurek
- Greater Lore Drake
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- Location: Menzoberranzan
Good luck Joe. I'd like to know how you ran it. I am suspecting one coming up soon in my game as well.
L.S.
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L.S.
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When All of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" -- M.Manson (Man That You Fear)
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Two Words...
Complete Disaster!
I went even simpler than a 10:1 ratio.
I split the intitiative for the bad guys into 3 separate sections: infantry, cavalry, and support (shamans & leaders) and rolled init for each section.
Then I gave the defenders of the wall the same initiative as the infantry badguys.
Instead of a 10:1 ratio and multiple dice rolls I reduced it down to one general opposed check, with the defenders gaining an "AC" bonus. I would roll a dice for the bad guys and a dice for the good guys and whoever won then rolled a d6 to determine how many troops fell and the defenders rolled a d8. I justified the additional defender damage because they treated their arrow tips with a paralytic alchemical concoction.
I would roll to determine the winner...roll to determine how many units fell and move to the next initiative.
I seemed to be able to manage this with ease.
The disaster was what unfolded...
I'll write soon with details.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
Complete Disaster!
I went even simpler than a 10:1 ratio.
I split the intitiative for the bad guys into 3 separate sections: infantry, cavalry, and support (shamans & leaders) and rolled init for each section.
Then I gave the defenders of the wall the same initiative as the infantry badguys.
Instead of a 10:1 ratio and multiple dice rolls I reduced it down to one general opposed check, with the defenders gaining an "AC" bonus. I would roll a dice for the bad guys and a dice for the good guys and whoever won then rolled a d6 to determine how many troops fell and the defenders rolled a d8. I justified the additional defender damage because they treated their arrow tips with a paralytic alchemical concoction.
I would roll to determine the winner...roll to determine how many units fell and move to the next initiative.
I seemed to be able to manage this with ease.
The disaster was what unfolded...
I'll write soon with details.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
-
LordSeurek
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 2868
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:00 am
- Location: Menzoberranzan
Was it a disaster because of how the rolls went, or because of how you ran the mass combat, or both?
_________________
When All of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" -- M.Manson (Man That You Fear)
Society Member: http://www.cncsociety.org/
_________________
When All of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" -- M.Manson (Man That You Fear)
Society Member: http://www.cncsociety.org/
My House Rules : http://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtop ... 23&t=10497
My TWITTER Account: http://twitter.com/LordSeurek
My TWITTER Account: http://twitter.com/LordSeurek
Neither really.
The dice rolled an amount of inopportune fumbles and crits for the players side.
The mass combat was harsh for the defenders.
There was a camp of foresters I reminded the group about but for some reason, they seemed too worried about what the GM wanted them to do and never initiated any actions outside of trying to defend the walls and longhouse until it was too late. I told them that it was very unlikely that some lowly npc s would save the day and turn the tide of battle while the player characters waited behind the walls. They actually started grumping at me because they could not understand why the foresters could not just be told to sneak around back and kill the army leader. This is when the debate of what the GM wanted came up. I found it bizarre that even though I made it clear they would need to think outside the box and take the initiative, they still tried to send an npc to do the actual deed.
The mage has a magic book he could have tried to contact his mentor with. .
The magic user cast many effective spells that had a large impact on the assault, but the mage got too close to the walls and stood out in the open long enough for the shamans to cook up the idea of abducting the mage for re-education. Mages in my home brew are a rare resource. The main bad guys force all with magical talent into servitude thru extreme measure. Afterward, this seemed to somewhat tame the mages actions. The mage seemed preoccupied when he could not immediately discover the hows and whys behind certain things.
Time was not on their side and the party essentially waited too long to try something. Every turn more defenders would fall and the enemy would keep advancing.
The mere numbers of the enemy and odds of the dice state that when you are out-gunned, and outnumbered is not the time to wait things out. It is a time for heroes to rise to the occasion by deeds worthy of legend. I explained to them that i gave them a few npcs to play so they too could perform heroic deeds but that ultimately it was the player characters role to save the day and not the npcs. I imagined the npcs under player control leading the defence of the walls while the players came up with something.
By the time the players decided to try to kill the leader, the village was already being overrun.
The earlier mentioned dice rolls came into play when I introduced a major npc adversary. My intention was to reveal the existence of a really scary dude that the other scary dudes were scared of that they may need to face some time in the future. My intention was to reveal his existence, have the players see him intimidate the army, and ride off into the sunset. One players dwarven fighter (wife) mistook the heavy duty npc for the leader of the army to confront.
Once she saw the armor clad human slap the army general around, she was intent of attacking him. Long story short, a fumble and a crit later the dwarf was driven thru with the bad guys charging lance and left bleeding unconscious alone and separated from the main battlefield.
So in a nutshell the overwhelming numbers and time worked against the players.
My most trusting player actually asked me if this module is even possible to beat.
I was very comfortable managing how I was running the combat, but as time went by, the number of defenders dwindled. They also bit hook line and sinker onto the initial tactic of lighting the longhouse on fire while using a charge on the gates as a distraction. Some of the create water spells and preplanning of magical digging a well were great ideas, but it was still only effective as a bucket brigade and the volume of water they were able to provide to the various fires decreased fast once the spells ran out.
The most troubling part of the game was not dice roils or combat tactics but rather human elements.
Player "mood" effected both actions and the other players to the point that GM was being questioned on more than one occasion whether something really hit them, or otherwise second guessing dice rolls, and general game results.
They seemed to want to argue rather than accept GM rulings or suggestions. I believe the root source of this attitude came from non-game issues. I also believe the players lack of seizing the moment came from this atmosphere. It almost felt as if the players thought that because the GM allowed them into this situation that it was up to the GM to get them out of it.
So in a nutshell when everything was on the line things began to break down.
I may have not communicated well, but I am not in the habit of explaining a mystery to a player just because it might bug them and I will not allow the npcs to fill the role of hero. I expect the players to come up with wild schemes and ultimately be the factor of victory or defeat.
That being saidI have to wonder if anyone managed to win the battle of Felsentheim.
I have learned a lot. I learned some of my own weaknesses as a GM. I learned that non-game issues MUST be resolved prior to game time or set aside.
I also learned that the players will need some more poking and prodding before they are the type that spin their own tales and run away with the plot.
Any insight, shared experiences or respectful comments are most welcome.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
The dice rolled an amount of inopportune fumbles and crits for the players side.
The mass combat was harsh for the defenders.
There was a camp of foresters I reminded the group about but for some reason, they seemed too worried about what the GM wanted them to do and never initiated any actions outside of trying to defend the walls and longhouse until it was too late. I told them that it was very unlikely that some lowly npc s would save the day and turn the tide of battle while the player characters waited behind the walls. They actually started grumping at me because they could not understand why the foresters could not just be told to sneak around back and kill the army leader. This is when the debate of what the GM wanted came up. I found it bizarre that even though I made it clear they would need to think outside the box and take the initiative, they still tried to send an npc to do the actual deed.
The mage has a magic book he could have tried to contact his mentor with. .
The magic user cast many effective spells that had a large impact on the assault, but the mage got too close to the walls and stood out in the open long enough for the shamans to cook up the idea of abducting the mage for re-education. Mages in my home brew are a rare resource. The main bad guys force all with magical talent into servitude thru extreme measure. Afterward, this seemed to somewhat tame the mages actions. The mage seemed preoccupied when he could not immediately discover the hows and whys behind certain things.
Time was not on their side and the party essentially waited too long to try something. Every turn more defenders would fall and the enemy would keep advancing.
The mere numbers of the enemy and odds of the dice state that when you are out-gunned, and outnumbered is not the time to wait things out. It is a time for heroes to rise to the occasion by deeds worthy of legend. I explained to them that i gave them a few npcs to play so they too could perform heroic deeds but that ultimately it was the player characters role to save the day and not the npcs. I imagined the npcs under player control leading the defence of the walls while the players came up with something.
By the time the players decided to try to kill the leader, the village was already being overrun.
The earlier mentioned dice rolls came into play when I introduced a major npc adversary. My intention was to reveal the existence of a really scary dude that the other scary dudes were scared of that they may need to face some time in the future. My intention was to reveal his existence, have the players see him intimidate the army, and ride off into the sunset. One players dwarven fighter (wife) mistook the heavy duty npc for the leader of the army to confront.
Once she saw the armor clad human slap the army general around, she was intent of attacking him. Long story short, a fumble and a crit later the dwarf was driven thru with the bad guys charging lance and left bleeding unconscious alone and separated from the main battlefield.
So in a nutshell the overwhelming numbers and time worked against the players.
My most trusting player actually asked me if this module is even possible to beat.
I was very comfortable managing how I was running the combat, but as time went by, the number of defenders dwindled. They also bit hook line and sinker onto the initial tactic of lighting the longhouse on fire while using a charge on the gates as a distraction. Some of the create water spells and preplanning of magical digging a well were great ideas, but it was still only effective as a bucket brigade and the volume of water they were able to provide to the various fires decreased fast once the spells ran out.
The most troubling part of the game was not dice roils or combat tactics but rather human elements.
Player "mood" effected both actions and the other players to the point that GM was being questioned on more than one occasion whether something really hit them, or otherwise second guessing dice rolls, and general game results.
They seemed to want to argue rather than accept GM rulings or suggestions. I believe the root source of this attitude came from non-game issues. I also believe the players lack of seizing the moment came from this atmosphere. It almost felt as if the players thought that because the GM allowed them into this situation that it was up to the GM to get them out of it.
So in a nutshell when everything was on the line things began to break down.
I may have not communicated well, but I am not in the habit of explaining a mystery to a player just because it might bug them and I will not allow the npcs to fill the role of hero. I expect the players to come up with wild schemes and ultimately be the factor of victory or defeat.
That being saidI have to wonder if anyone managed to win the battle of Felsentheim.
I have learned a lot. I learned some of my own weaknesses as a GM. I learned that non-game issues MUST be resolved prior to game time or set aside.
I also learned that the players will need some more poking and prodding before they are the type that spin their own tales and run away with the plot.
Any insight, shared experiences or respectful comments are most welcome.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
I use the old battlesystem basic rules and the seige of The Tower of Kuthrad Silvas went well, some harrowing moments and some moments of heroism. But I know those rules really well.
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I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg
_________________
I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg
I just ran a mid-sized battle (600 vs 280) during the last session of my C&C campaign. I chose to use Mongoose Publishing's Open Content Mass Combat System, which is designed for 3.5, but I revised for C&C.
Other than my players not being familiar with the OCMS rules (which treat units like individual characters, so it's not too hard), and some difficulties on my part (also due to inexperience in use), I think it ran pretty smooth.
I choose to keep the unit size at an average of 20, with cavalry units sized at 10. In hindsight, I would have made the units larger in size, and fewer in number--it would have gone smoother and faster, I think.
Other than my players not being familiar with the OCMS rules (which treat units like individual characters, so it's not too hard), and some difficulties on my part (also due to inexperience in use), I think it ran pretty smooth.
I choose to keep the unit size at an average of 20, with cavalry units sized at 10. In hindsight, I would have made the units larger in size, and fewer in number--it would have gone smoother and faster, I think.
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Omote
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Fields of Battle 4tW on this. According to everything TLG and Bowbe has said on this, Falsentheim would be the perfect scenario for Fields of Battle.
~O
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I think mass battles are best abstracted. Mass combat brings a completely different element to the game that most rpgs are not designed for.
Many may enjoy them but they are as close to roleplaying as 4E is to D&D.
I will be hesitant to ever do it again.
BTW: What is fields of battle?
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
Many may enjoy them but they are as close to roleplaying as 4E is to D&D.
I will be hesitant to ever do it again.
BTW: What is fields of battle?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
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Breakdaddy
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 3875
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Joe wrote:
I think mass battles are best abstracted. Mass combat brings a completely different element to the game that most rpgs are not designed for.
Many may enjoy them but they are as close to roleplaying as 4E is to D&D.
I will be hesitant to ever do it again.
BTW: What is fields of battle?
Sorry to hear about your session. And here is info on Fields of Battle.
R-
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I preordered FoB and I hope the thing is released on a schedule completely unlike the CKG. Hate for that cash to stay in limbo that long. In fact I hope it gets here before summer, I have a large war brewing and the overrun of the PC's territory is the first line.
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I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg
_________________
I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg