Troll Lord Games

Question 1:

A footnote in page 46 of the PHB 4th Ed. says that a human character cannot put on his belt more than 2 large pouches and 1 little pouch.

Than it states that a large pouch is the equivalent of a scabbard, a quiver, 2 little pouches or a spell component pouch. Ok but... I cannot find a scabbard in the equipment list and anyway, it means that I cannot have at my belt 2 daggers and a sword (3 scabbards in total)? Or two broadswords and a short sword? Eventually what weapons need a scabbard and what weapons have not a scabbard? I can use a quiver on my belt with two swords? Or have two swords using also a dagger that is put on the belt without using a scabbard? Etc etc etc...

Also there is some advantage in putting a quiver on the belt and not on the shoulders?

Question 2:

If I am not wrong, it is not clearly specified that some weapons can be used as double offensive tools. I am thinking about the staff for an exemple. The rules for the two handed fighting are used even for a double weapon?

Question 3:

Looking at the wonderful Player's Handbook 4th Ed. I have noticed that at page 48 there is a ruling to put objects in backpacks and pouches.

Strangely enough there are two segments of the rule, it seems like they have been taken in consideration for a final layout but hav been left there both for a mistake.

I have to divide in two the encumbrance of an object when it is put in a backpack? The capacity must be considered for the "not packaged" objects or for the totally packaged objects? So I can put in a backpack objects for 8EV having 5(w) (5+1 for the backpack) of encumbrance? Or I can put there 16EV of objects having a final 9(w) (8+1) of encumbrance?

ALso, the EV for the backpack at page 45 is listed as 2, not 1. What is the correct value?

In the second exemple that rules the same thing in another manner (subtract 2 fom the EV for a minimum of 1) the exemple seems messed up. The exemple says that atota encumbrance value of 8 (the maximum for a backpack) would be reduced to 5... why?! 8-2 is 6... and even if every oject there will have areduction of 2 while jeeping a minimum of 1 the total would be 4 not 5... again the EV for the backpack is considered 1.

What is the correct way to read this complicated paragraph?

Welcome to C&C, it's good to have yet another Crusader!
Question 1:

The most important thing to remember here is that C&C is a rules light game. Rules like this one are generally changed by each CK as needed or simply removed. If you do want to play it by the book, I would suggest a large pouch is equal to a scabbard for a medium sized weapon such as a broadsword. So a broadsword and two daggers would be fine. Two broadswords and a short sword, however, would not fit. But that's just my suggestion since the rules don't answer that question. This happens often in C&C and was done on purpose so each CK could decide how he or she wanted to answer those questions.

As far as I know there is no scabbard in the equipment list and I would assume any weapon which requires one actually comes with it. As for the rest of how much you can put in a certain location, those things listed on page 46 are really just general guidelines. I don't think there are many CKs that pay much attention to them other than as a general idea of how much a character can carry. And, by the book, there is no benefit to having a quiver on your back or belt though there might be a benefit to having items such as potions on your belt (the CK may allow you to get the item and use it in the same round for example).

Question 2:

The rules for two weapon fighting are only used if a character is trying to use two separate weapons, one in each hand. So a staff would use the normal rules. This is, of course, by the book and you can run it any way you would like in your games.

Question 3:

In older printings of C&C, load-bearing and worn items had slightly different rules and some of the language has not been cleaned up in the 4th printing. Now, both types of items reduce encumbrance values in the same way, which is: take the total encumbrance value in the load-bearing item (or the encumbrance value of the worn item) and divide it by 2 and then round down. The result is the new encumbrance value.

For example, if you put a 1 encumbrance value item in a small pouch you would divide 1 by 2 (0.5 being the result) and round down. So the encumbrance value of the item inside the pouch is now 0 (this is why the PHB gives you suggested guidelines for how many pouches a character can carry).

Another example is leather armor. This is a worn item with an encumbrance value of 2. So you divide 2 by 2 (1 being the result) and round down (not needed in this case). The new encumbrance value for wearing leather armor is 1.

I hope I made things more clear and not more confusing.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society

Jackal is absolutely correct in his answers. You can use the rules however you think it is right for your games if these do not work for you.

As to question number 3, when the 4th printing was being edited, the new encumbrance rules for load-bearing items and worn items were inserted in the text and the old rules never removed. They both kind of get you to the same place, and in a sense both are correct. Though the first load-bearing rules are the new ones.

~O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

So I have to divide for 2 the encumbrance and round down. Ok.

I do not have the 3rd edition of the game so I think that if I have something worn I have to use the EV in the equipment list? Or I have to subtract 1? There is too much text (2nd paragraph is an older version) and perhaps some missing text about worn items then?

About question 2 I had the same answer in keeper advice and that's fine for me.

About question 1 I've been said that a scabbard is considered included in every bladed weapon. And a dagger counts. So no broadsword with 2 daggers.

Using 2 belts instead on one will not change that.

I think that I will house rule that because (teorically obviously) that means that you can hang on your belt 4 maces (no scabbards) but only 2 daggers because they have scabbards. A little illogical even from the assumption that I am reading in that footnote a simple guideline.

I think that I will consider Jackal suggestion about the medium weapons, it seems more logical.

mostrojoe wrote:
So I have to divide for 2 the encumbrance and round down. Ok.

I do not have the 3rd edition of the game so I think that if I have something worn I have to use the EV in the equipment list? Or I have to subtract 1? There is too much text (2nd paragraph is an older version) and perhaps some missing text about worn items then?

About question 2 I had the same answer in keeper advice and that's fine for me.

About question 1 I've been said that a scabbard is considered included in every bladed weapon. And a dagger counts. So no broadsword with 2 daggers.

Using 2 belts instead on one will not change that.

I think that I will house rule that because (teorically obviously) that means that you can hang on your belt 4 maces (no scabbards) but only 2 daggers because they have scabbards. A little illogical even from the assumption that I am reading in that footnote a simple guideline.

I think that I will consider Jackal suggestion about the medium weapons, it seems more logical.

For how much a character can carry, logic is your best friend. It's faster than mathematical calculations and often makes more sense anyway. As for using two belts, in the 4th printing, there is an option to buy a baldric belt (this is a belt slung over the shoulder for holding weapons). In my own games I treat this piece of equipment as a bandoleer so it can be used just the same as any other belt (though it must be worn over the shoulder).

Even allowing two baldric belts (crossing over the chest for example) and one normal belt is not really a problem. Either logic or a character's encumbrance rating will keep him from carrying too much.

About encumbrance values, try to ignore the text in the book and just remember this. If the number is followed by a (w) and the character is wearing it, take the listed encumbrance value and divide by 2, rounding the result down.

If you are putting items inside a load-bearing container (backpacks, pouches, etc.) then you use the above formula for the total value of all items inside the container.

If neither of these things apply, then use the listed value in the equipment lists.

Or, stick with logic and let characters carry what makes sense to you. This is easiest, fastest and, often, best.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society

Jackal wrote:
For how much a character can carry, logic is your best friend. It's faster than mathematical calculations and often makes more sense anyway. As for using two belts, in the 4th printing, there is an option to buy a baldric belt (this is a belt slung over the shoulder for holding weapons). In my own games I treat this piece of equipment as a bandoleer so it can be used just the same as any other belt (though it must be worn over the shoulder).

I do not have 4th Ed because I despise it, so in my little world no money is wasted for what is D&D just on the frontcover.

Anyway I had that same idea (a baldric and a belt) but in the Keeper Advice room has been clearly stated that this is just a cosmetic option and not a way to augment the weapons to be carried. I think that, anyway, the most logic idea is to consider the medium weapons and not the small ones, I like that
Oh and... the wearing EV were intended to be considered like they are or with a -1 modifier if worn, not hlfed in two if worn. I still have to understand that little messing up in the PHB. Sometimes I see in the PHB some editing problem like redundant text. I think that some text was there because a version or the other should be getting choosen, then for a mistake both of them have gone to printing.

mostrojoe wrote:
Oh and... the wearing EV were intended to be considered like they are or with a -1 modifier if worn, not hlfed in two if worn. I still have to understand that little messing up in the PHB. Sometimes I see in the PHB some editing problem like redundant text. I think that some text was there because a version or the other should be getting choosen, then for a mistake both of them have gone to printing.

The wearable items reducing EV by -1 was the old rule but, in the 4th printing, it no longer applies. Wearable items now reduce EV the same way load-bearing items do. Of course, if you like the old way you're free to use it, or anything else that comes to mind.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society

Worn items are supposed to reduce the EV by 1

Capacity items reduce the items inside by 1/2 (round down).

An editing mistake had both sections put in while they removed the section about Worn items.

As far as your other questions, I answered it in Keeper's Advice as well, but I'd say that you're free to remove the belt restriction or to allow EV 1 weapons to take the place of a small belt pouch.

Scabbards were originally going to be in the game (to reduce the EV of weapons), but seemed to fiddly. Just assume a weapon that would have a scabbard has one. It really makes no EV difference... the restrictions on belt pouches were to keep people from putting 20 Small Belt pouches on and filling them with stuff (since a full Small Belt Pouch is 0 EV if Worn). A limit had to be made, so I figured 5 Small Pouches was enough... hence 2 Large and 1 Small with 1 Large being worth 2 small, a scabbard, or a quiver. I'd probably let a baldric hold 1 Large and 4 Small Pouches.

Did that help?
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discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

cheeplives wrote:
Worn items are supposed to reduce the EV by 1

Capacity items reduce the items inside by 1/2 (round down).

An editing mistake had both sections put in while they removed the section about Worn items.

As far as your other questions, I answered it in Keeper's Advice as well, but I'd say that you're free to remove the belt restriction or to allow EV 1 weapons to take the place of a small belt pouch.

Scabbards were originally going to be in the game (to reduce the EV of weapons), but seemed to fiddly. Just assume a weapon that would have a scabbard has one. It really makes no EV difference... the restrictions on belt pouches were to keep people from putting 20 Small Belt pouches on and filling them with stuff (since a full Small Belt Pouch is 0 EV if Worn). A limit had to be made, so I figured 5 Small Pouches was enough... hence 2 Large and 1 Small with 1 Large being worth 2 small, a scabbard, or a quiver. I'd probably let a baldric hold 1 Large and 4 Small Pouches.

Did that help?

You sure about that? As far as I've been told, the worn items and load bearing items are now supposed to use the same formula. The worn items used to have a different mechanic but that's been changed for the 4th printing...or is that wrong?

Edit: Just to be clear...I'm sure you're sure. But I want to make sure I'm understanding everything right. Because, if so, I've been giving the wrong answer to the above question and would like to say, my fault.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society

Jackal wrote:
You sure about that? As far as I've been told, the worn items and load bearing items are now supposed to use the same formula. The worn items used to have a different mechanic but that's been changed for the 4th printing...or is that wrong?

Edit: Just to be clear...I'm sure you're sure. But I want to make sure I'm understanding everything right. Because, if so, I've been giving the wrong answer to the above question and would like to say, my fault.

Unless there was an executive decision by the Troll Lords to make this change for ther 4th Printing, then you were informed incorrectly. The only changes made by me was to the Capacity Items... Worn Items were not to be affected.

If you want to use it, though, I don't see an issue... simplify by all means.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

cheeplives wrote:
Unless there was an executive decision by the Troll Lords to make this change for ther 4th Printing, then you were informed incorrectly. The only changes made by me was to the Capacity Items... Worn Items were not to be affected.

If you want to use it, though, I don't see an issue... simplify by all means.

Nah, it doesn't matter to me either way. lol I prefer characters to carry less when they want to weigh themselves down with heavy arms and armors. I mostly just wanted to make sure I'm not dropping bad information across the forums and in any promo games I might run.

So thanks for clearing that up for me and, as mentioned, I'd like to say a big "my bad" about the answers given above.
Though, as cheeplives mentioned, I do think my wrong answer presents an interesting idea for those who find encumbrance to be useful but overly restricting.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society