Troll Lord Games

There seems to be a point where fighter types get bored with combat as their turns are reduced to a couple dice rolls, and the lion share of game time is spent on powerful spell effects and the spell casters responsible.

I find it ironic when a combat specialist feels overshadowed by spellcasters during combat, yet it seems to happen at a certain point in every campaign.

Thoughts?

Ideas?

Comments?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

There are a number of creatures (golems come to mind) that are totally or partially immune to magic. There are also many situations where much of a spellcaster's more potent spells aren't appropriate - say, in a confined space, or where the enemy is mixed in with the friendlies, or non-combatants.

I'm sure that's just scratching the surface.
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Yeah, my group is fighting a bunch of creatures with SR and high save rolls, so are complaining about being "useless", meaning the spell casters. The 10th to 13th level spell casters.

Then the fighter types complain about how useless they are because of getting caught by a Hold Person spell, so in my experience everyone has pretty much been equally useless.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Gotta go with Tree on this one. If the common occurences are that the spell casters are dominating the campaign, then it falls to the CK to ensure that "the balance" is redressed...by use of creatures or situations that downplay the role of the spell caster, with a solid mix of creatures that do much the same to the melee types. Granted there are circumstances where it is impossible or impractical to do so, but these should be the oddity and not the norm.

In short, it's not the fault in the classes but in the CK in the majority of cases.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

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I guess I must be one of the few that really prefer martial characters to spell casters, when I'm playing. I always figure that in the back of my mind, once the caster has tapped out everything they have, then the only place to run and hide is behind the fighter.
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So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their ending. - Bilbo Baggins, The Hobbit

It's all fun and games until someone gets eaten by a grue.

It happens at level 1. It never goes away.
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Plus, it is amazing what a little creature with a sling can do to a spell caster in mid cast.

Quote:
spell casters are dominating the campaign, then it falls to the CK to ensure that "the balance" is redressed

I can't say it better than that. If the MU is stealing the show than have a monster act as intelligent as it's stats say it is. Even the lowly kobold is cleaver enough to snipe at a spell slinger from the shadows, what will an intelligent monster do?
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Too true Lurker, if I have intelligent opponents, they will always target a caster (or priest) first, barring that they know and understand what the character is.
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So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their ending. - Bilbo Baggins, The Hobbit

It's all fun and games until someone gets eaten by a grue.

Never happends in my games. Frankly casters just don't ever get enough spells. They save them for the times the party needs them.

The Fighters ect...treat them a lot like portable nukes. They have to lug them around and guard them and take care of them in order to get them in place so they can use the firepower at the right time.

Even at high levels in my game casters depend on warriors and others to keep them alive.
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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Gotta love the look of fear in the wizard's player's eyes when their character has been grappled by a bunch of relatively low-level creatures and is being carried off to their doom....
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

I find it to be less of a problem in C&C than most other similar games. C&C's creature saving throw system gives many creatures a good chance against many spells.

That alone gives the CK more tools to work with than the magic immune.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society

Really, the caster's abilties are finite if you enforce the time needed to prepare their spells... the amount of spells they have... and which spells they select.

The problem I see in many campaigns is the the wizard will devote a largerly perecentage to spells of a combative nature. I mean, if you are in a campaign and you know that the game will be 90% combat, how you prepare will be different than a campaign that focuses on 40% combat.

Finally... hoards upon hoards of creatures... even lesser powered ones are great. Will the spell caster waste such spells on mooks? If mooks are overrunning the party, will the party mage dare fireballing everyone to eliminate the lesser threat?

As echoed earlier... in a land of magic, a lot of opponents will also be familiar with magic and react accordingly. Or... have magic of their own. The fighter can be a great mage killer though a friendly mage may need to clear the path for him to get to the enemy mage.

M
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Spell casters in the PC party. (Mages and Priest types)

As a CK that is why I often use Thief/Assasin NPCs....

Even the Hero fighter cannot protect the Arch Magi and/or High Priest against an enemy that neither one can see or hear......

Backstabbing and sneak attacks can decimate a parties spell casters and if the NPC is Evil, poison blades are likely, especially at high levels.

Many times the PCs do not think to precast spells (before the battle) to avoid that sort of problem and the bad guys most probably KNOW you are coming....

Surely you do no really think all that spell tossing and hacking and slashing on the previous level went unnoticed and unreported?
In my Castles (as the Caslte Keeper) there are usually emergency response teams and very good early warning systems set up for the bad guys.

........muahahahahahaha.....

Aneoth of Ironwood wrote:
Spell casters in the PC party. (Mages and Priest types)

As a CK that is why I often use Thief/Assasin NPCs....

Even the Hero fighter cannot protect the Arch Magi and/or High Priest against an enemy that neither one can see or hear......

Backstabbing and sneak attacks can decimate a parties spell casters and if the NPC is Evil, poison blades are likely, especially at high levels.

Many times the PCs do not think to precast spells (before the battle) to avoid that sort of problem and the bad guys most probably KNOW you are coming....

Surely you do no really think all that spell tossing and hacking and slashing on the previous level went unnoticed and unreported?

In my Castles (as the Caslte Keeper) there are usually emergency response teams and very good early warning systems set up for the bad guys.

........muahahahahahaha.....

I totally agree - especially combined with the speed at which rogues gain levels, and the way the SIEGE mechanic works. C&C is by far the game of Rogues, even moreso than D&D.
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moriarty777 wrote:
Really, the caster's abilties are finite if you enforce the time needed to prepare their spells... the amount of spells they have... and which spells they select.

The problem I see in many campaigns is the the wizard will devote a largerly perecentage to spells of a combative nature. I mean, if you are in a campaign and you know that the game will be 90% combat, how you prepare will be different than a campaign that focuses on 40% combat.

Finally... hoards upon hoards of creatures... even lesser powered ones are great. Will the spell caster waste such spells on mooks? If mooks are overrunning the party, will the party mage dare fireballing everyone to eliminate the lesser threat?

As echoed earlier... in a land of magic, a lot of opponents will also be familiar with magic and react accordingly. Or... have magic of their own. The fighter can be a great mage killer though a friendly mage may need to clear the path for him to get to the enemy mage.

M

This raises a few good points to which I would like to add:

Exotic weapons such as bolo are found in the Rules Cyclopedia D&D. They play havoc on casters back in the day and would really limit a caster in C&C (somantic component, meet bolo around the arms).

Then there are the mancatcher polearms and sleeve tanglers. Those make certain spell casting trickier.

I can only imagine a spell casters woes when he runs into a phalnx of mancatcher polearm wielding goblins. Or anybody elses.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

My biggest concern with a tabletop game has always been less absolute balance, and more, that everyone is useful at each level. Though my experience so far is fairly limited, it seems that, yes, the spellcasters are more 'powerful', but they also really need the rogue and fighter types around so they can concentrate on casting spells and not on running around avoiding death, badly.

In the party I'm CKing for, the real beast is the dwarven fighter/cleric.

Kaiser_Kris wrote:
In the party I'm CKing for, the real beast is the dwarven fighter/cleric.

Naturally.

I have found casters to be deadly as hell.

I like that magic is based on the power of the caster not the level of the spell - ie a 1st level Spell cast by a 10th level Wizard is much harder to resist than that of a 1st level caster doing the same spell.

Spell casters are dangerous.

In my home brew world I use a pretty basic Spell point system and I allow Spell casters in general to have spells in memory - ie they memorize their allotted spells per day (no need to double up) and they can cast those spells however they want as long as they have enough spell points to do so.

I find that this system allows for a better game (more fun) Spells such as Magic Missile and Fireball cost more than thier base cost depending on how much more damage or how many missiles are cast.

My games are over the top but deadly as well.

In games with less house rules I have noted that spell casters are powerful from the start . They way Primes work and how the power increases with the level of the Wizard make for a world were Magick is feared.

I know my characters do.

But in the words of Vlad Taltos "Wizards can't cast spells with a blade in thier backs"

Wulfgarn wrote:
In my home brew world I use a pretty basic Spell point system and I allow Spell casters in general to have spells in memory - ie they memorize their allotted spells per day (no need to double up) and they can cast those spells however they want as long as they have enough spell points to do so.

I find that this system allows for a better game (more fun) Spells such as Magic Missile and Fireball cost more than thier base cost depending on how much more damage or how many missiles are cast.

Intriguing!

Do you mind if we talk more about this I may also want to write it into my own project.

I am using a house system but always interested in looking at simplified rules for modifying magic.

I like the spells just put to memory. That seems much more intuitive than spell slots and instant memory loss.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

moriarty777 wrote:
Really, the caster's abilties are finite if you enforce the time needed to prepare their spells... the amount of spells they have... and which spells they select.

Interestingly, I find that the need to select spells in advance is a pretty important check. Smart wizards conserve spells (and are easily interrupted losing a precious and irreplaceable spell).

I like the idea of not forcing a caster to prepare spells but, with the power of individual spells, it appears to be a necessary check.