Troll Lord Games

I have 3.5/Pathfinder burn out and being an old gamer I want to get back so here I am. I bought the players rule book and want to buy the other two, but I have questions before I spend more money.

First, I want to keep to the rules as much as possible because I like the simplicity .

1. Skill checks got me confused. I understand that certian class abliities are like trained skills checks. I understand that others can do those at a penality. BUT what about skills that need training but is not cover? What do you do? Why is this not covered or is it?

2. Not a question really but a statement. While I like what they were trying to do, the knight sucks. what a waste. He doesnt even get a +1 to hit at first level.

3.Is there more spells ? There's so few of them.

Welcome to the Crusade, nightstorm! Here's my take on your points:

Quote:
1. Skill checks got me confused. I understand that certian class abliities are like trained skills checks. I understand that others can do those at a penality. BUT what about skills that need training but is not cover? What do you do? Why is this not covered or is it?

First of all, it's not a given that everyone can try everything. However, for those CKs that do allow characters to attempt something outside their class - a ranger trying to pick a lock, for example - remember that only a member of the appropriate class can add their level as a bonus to the SIEGE check.

No rule book in front of me but I don't believe it's explicitly laid out in the PHB. The C&C philosophy is to be rules-light, providing enough structure to run the game as written but with enough room for individual CKs and groups to modify things to suit their own style.

In this case, some CKs have their players come up with backgrounds to provide some justification for attempting a non-class action. So, for example, a wizard that grew up as a street urchin, and has DEX as a prime, would be able to try to sneak or pick a lock, but wouldn't be able to add their level.

For other things not expressly covered, it's up to the CK to adjudicate the circumstances. I'll use Treebore's famous example: the fighter wants to be able to attack two opponents at once (a 3E Cleave). He makes a SIEGE check based on STR modified by the HD of the creatures he's opposing and adding his level as a bonus.

Got a specific example of something needing training that's not covered?

Quote:
2. Not a question really but a statement. While I like what they were trying to do, the knight sucks. what a waste. He doesn't even get a +1 to hit at first level.

Knights are at a bit of a disadvantage in a dungeon, but still have the ability to use any armor or weapon and have good HP. But knights really shine out of doors on horseback. By default, they're the only class that can fight without penalty while mounted, and a charging knight can be truly impressive even at low levels. Their leadership abilities, used intelligently, can also save a party's bacon in dire circumstances.

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3.Is there more spells ? There's so few of them.

The 4th printing of the PHB expands the illusionist spell list considerably, but that's about it. The Black Libram of Nartarus product adds some truly nasty dark magic spells (as well as guidelines for letting any spellcaster follow the path of necromancy). If you check the sticky post above for Internet resources you'll find a number of user-submitted spells. And of course, nothing stops you from creating your own, or allowing your players to research and create new ones. One could also adapt spells from other games to C&C without too much trouble - in fact, OD&D or 1st edition spells probably drop right in with little modification needed.

Again, welcome, and have fun!
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Welcome to the Crusade! Over the years, I have heard or read many a statement of burnout from 3.5 though I confess I haven't heard people mentioning burnout from Pathfinder much. I understand and I'm sure there will be more since Pathfinder is more like 3.75 if anything.
To try and answer your questions (I'm sure others will as well):

1. Basically, it's simple. If a skill is associated with a particular class (example Open Lock), then a character (like a Rogue) belonging to that class adds his level to the check. If someone else attempts this (say a Fighter) tries, you can do one of two things (both of which are listed in the book). One is simply not allow it. Two is to allow it but WITHOUT the level adjustment.

Castles & Crusades really goes the easy route when it comes to skills. Primarily, it's regarded as an extra detail. Some people prefer to itemize character experiences when the write up their background and a GM will take this into account (such as being the son of a blacksmith).

Others prefer to tack on a simplified skill list and adapts it from 3.5 or Pathfinder (usually by keeping all the general skills but removing certain others which are now identified as class abilities such as Open Lock).

Lastly, if you are talking about something more specialized, you could always allow levels in 'professions' (blacksmith... artisan... carpenter, etc) by expending 1000 xp for level '1' and simply double the xp cost for the next level.

Personally, what might also be an idea for a character trying a skill belonging to another class is to give that non-proficient character another -4 penalty. This is the same penalty a character received for picking up a weapon that is not associated on his skill list.

2. Some people like the knight while others are not so fussy on it. However keep in mind that there is only one class that gets a +1 to hit at first level -- the Fighter.

3. Some modules and accessories have a few more spells. Importing a few favorites from Pathfinder or AD&D would be relatively easy to do. At first I thought some people would have an issue with this but all my players seemed perfectly happy with the spells as-is.

M
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Welcome Nightstorm. I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit though... the Knight is awesome. When you get a better feel for the system, particularly how the SIEGE syetem works, you may change your mind. Coming from the games you have played, there is a lot to get used to. When there isn't a rule for everything, the subtlties of Castles & Crusades take a bit sink in.

All the best.

~O
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thanks for the replies!

Welcome to the Crusade!

All I will add is that as a player of a Knight from first level to currently 7th, they do not suck when on horse back. In fact they are very kick butt, and in a dungeon they can hold their own, to the point where I recently added to my titles "Eye Slayer" because I practically single handedly slew a Beholder, saving my party from death or permanent death.

They may be whimpy compared to 3E/Pathfinder equivalents (OK, I know they are), but in C&C he is surprisingly kick butt, especially when you learn to utilize his Horsemanship on the battle field.

I mean, you do realize he gets no penalties to riding checks or combat attacks while on horseback? Plus, if he is "higher" than those around him he gains the situational modifier in the book. Plus he is usually tall enough on horse back giants and the like do not get it against him.

So riding around a battle field with his lance, doing triple damage with each hit, he kills a lot of things, fast. Just buy extra horses and lances, because you will go through both fast as well!
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The replies so far have covered it quite nicely, so Ill just say welcome to the forums and the C&C game!

Thanks all. Does the knight add his char and level to all social rolls? If so that would be cool.

nightstorm wrote:
Thanks all. Does the knight add his char and level to all social rolls? If so that would be cool.

As written a knight would add his charisma bonus* but not his level to generic social rolls. However, letting knights add their level to social rolls in situations where it would matter, i.e., ones in which his social rank would have meaning to the people in the situation, would be a perfectly legitimate tweak for your game world. Heck, I may just steal that idea from you.

* One area where C&C differs greatly from 3.x (and I assume Pathfinder) is that attribute bonuses are a lot lower, hearkening back to the levels of 1st edition. For example, the normal track tops out at +3 for an attribute of 18 instead of +5. The counter to that is that monsters in M&T were written with this level of power in mind.
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CKDad wrote:
As written a knight would add his charisma bonus* but not his level to generic social rolls. However, letting knights add their level to social rolls in situations where it would matter, i.e., ones in which his social rank would have meaning to the people in the situation, would be a perfectly legitimate tweak for your game world. Heck, I may just steal that idea from you.

* One area where C&C differs greatly from 3.x (and I assume Pathfinder) is that attribute bonuses are a lot lower, hearkening back to the levels of 1st edition. For example, the normal track tops out at +3 for an attribute of 18 instead of +5. The counter to that is that monsters in M&T were written with this level of power in mind.

Actually, you only do NOT add your level when it is something that steps directly onto another classes class ability. (Page 125, right column, "Adding Character Level to Checks", 4th printing)

I don't recall any class having a "general diplomat" ability, not even the Bard. I can be wrong, I am not skimming through the classes in the book to verify.

So I am pretty sure they do get to add their level in most cases, and if he is CHA Prime as well, he is going to be a very persuasive talker.

Even so, this is a "leader" oriented class, so I would definitely allow level to be added when its a leadership issue, such as leading a charge, rallying troops to stop a route, etc...
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nightstorm wrote:
I have 3.5...burn out

That's where I hail from, after running an epic level campaign.
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moriarty777 wrote:
Some modules and accessories have a few more spells. Importing a few favorites from Pathfinder or AD&D would be relatively easy to do. At first I thought some people would have an issue with this but all my players seemed perfectly happy with the spells as-is.

A more limited spell list is a good thing. Very long spell lists can have a lot of repetitive spells, require more effort to familairize oneself with and lead to far more opportunities for "unexpected synergy".

I like the C&C approach of putting out the basic spells required to fulfill the class role and making those spells effective. So the short list seems to be more of a beneift than an disadvantage to me.

Welcome to C&C. I came here as part of 3.5 burnout, too, and I'm finding myself reinvigorated. I can focus on creating a really memorable gaming session rather than spending all my time figuring out feats, skills, stats and rules. Enjoy!

And as for spells...They've been perfectly adequate for my players. I've focused a bit on getting them to 'customize' their spells by describing how they look/work. And I'm open to importing some stuff from the Scarred Lands books (that's the setting I've continued to use), but so far players haven't really felt the need. From my 3.5 days, I've found so many spells just repeated things in a slightly different form (and far too many spells were way too powerful for a given level -- easily fixed in C&C by toning them down or adjusting the level.)

In case it was not said somewhere else, and you are still around, welcome to the Crusade. We're all entitled to being wrong now and then. Some of us, especially me, are more prone to that than usual... though, we don't always admit it.
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Welcome. Have fun and enjoy!

serleran wrote:
In case it was not said somewhere else, and you are still around, welcome to the Crusade. We're all entitled to being wrong now and then. Some of us, especially me, are more prone to that than usual... though, we don't always admit it.

I don't think he's still around. After the responses to his other thread he likely tucked tail and ran.
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Good.
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