John Woo Castles & Crusades

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Come to think about it, isn't the trigger mechanism on the medieval light crossbow more of a hand lever than an actual finger trigger like we're accustomed to on firearms? While it might be possible to hold a light crossbow with one hand, there's no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that you'll be able to change your grip to get around the release (I don't want to call it a trigger per se), then control your grip until you get the crossbow to the release point. You're not shooting a modern 30-30, for crying out loud. It's a sizeable chunk of wood with a 4-inch-long piece of metal to release the bolt. I'm tending more toward the unpopular nerf the more I think about this....

[Go0gleplex]

You gots it right Osis. The early crossbows did use a lever trigger. As they developed, it came to resemble, but still not was, a more modern type of trigger assembly. That was the point I was trying to make with the modification comment. You can't hold and fire or hold and not fire the crossbow with one hand without some serious tinkerage due to, in large part, the trigger mechanism style and placement.
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[atons]

Aneoth of Ironwood wrote:
Agree with much of what was stated above.

In most cases I would not allow it but if the PC was an expert with the weapon and practiced two separate one-handed crossbow shots, then yes.

Otherwise I would penalize the PCs shots so much that it would not be worth even trying.

IMO it is not the same as using a long sword in each hand or a long sword in one hand and a dagger (or short sword) in the other

A crossbow is a Two-handed weapon, much like a two handed sword, or a HUGE axe, or a HUGE Hammer, and not just because it takes two hands to c.o.c.k. (I was censored , so I added the dots) and re-load it either.

I would certainly allow a PC to use two so-called handheld (TINY) crossbows at once.

I might also (Given the right circumstances) allow firing two crossbows at the same time too.

Even heavy crossbows.... (Not a ballista though)

Have any of you ever fired a crossbow?

I have an Australian light crossbow in my collection and even though I have practiced with it a bit, I am no expert with it and there is no way I could use it one-handed well enough to hit a mountain without some sort of bracing

In other words, I would need to be resting it on a stable structure to help my aim, such as while sitting in a low posture (weapon resting on a knee), low hanging branch of a tree, a TRAINED horses back (on the saddle), a boulder, a windowsill, a low wall, or something similar.

However; I suspect there are some folks who could do it and so (as I said above) I would allow it in the right circumstances.

I would make the penalties severe though.

Is a highlander sword belongs in long sword category?

[DangerDwarf]

Go0gleplex wrote:
You gots it right Osis. The early crossbows did use a lever trigger. As they developed, it came to resemble, but still not was, a more modern type of trigger assembly. That was the point I was trying to make with the modification comment. You can't hold and fire or hold and not fire the crossbow with one hand without some serious tinkerage due to, in large part, the trigger mechanism style and placement.

That's operating under the assumption that the crossbow does not already have a trigger mechanism. Considering that the chinese had been using trigger mechanisms back as far as BCE, I don't have much of a problem with my fantasy plate mail having societies possessing crossbows with actual triggers instead of levers.

[Fiffergrund]

WHA????

I say no, flat out. Not possible.

A crossbow has a lever trigger, not a trigger like one would expect on a modern crossbow. The trigger must be squeezed with the entire hand, not with a single finger. At the same time the entire hand is used to squeeze, we are expected to believe that the character is somehow also using that hand and arm to hold the crossbow out straight and steady enough for reasonable aim. Oh, and light crossbows are made out of sturdy wood that can handle the stresses of high tensile loading and firing, so they are probably 4 to 5 lbs each, at a minimum.

A regular hit attempt with a single light crossbow requires two hands and implied aim.

If the player wants to try it, I would rule that a natural 20 is required or the character cannot manage the weight of the crossbow and pull the trigger at the same time while aiming anywhere near reasonably. If the natural 20 occurs, a fluke causes one of the bolts to hit.

If the character wants to go all John Woo, I suggest pistol crossbows. This is pretty much absurd to me, and I like heroic stuff. I think Serl was too charitable.
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[Fiffergrund]

Then again, John Woo directed the horrible Mission Impossible 2, when two guys jump off speeding motorcycles colliding in mid-air and not only live through it, not only DON'T break every bone in their bodies, but continue fighting!

John Woo absurdity isn't for me, I guess.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[DangerDwarf]

Is this light crossbow impossible?

An actual trigger mechanism that is over 2,000 years old, These saw regular use in the Warring States era in China. Accurately fabricated bronze trigger mechanisms were fairly normal.

So, can't call it a stretch for me to include trigger happy crossbows in my fantasy world.

[Fiffergrund]

I'm not calling it a stretch that triggers existed. They definitely did. However, I don't think that makes much difference in terms of the maneuver.

Holding two of them up, at arms length, aiming, and firing, with any decent chance to hit with either, is highly improbable whether the crossbow has a trigger or a lever. A lever makes it almost impossible to even get into a reasonable position.

Two trigger crossbows might stand a chance of hitting against a massed grouping, maybe. Assuming the shooter was strong enough and could get the crossbows pointed in the right direction at the same time. I still think it's impossible to accurately select individual targets.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[DangerDwarf]

The C&C light crossbow weighs 6lbs. While akward, it would not be a tremendous feat of strength.

As for aiming? Instinct shooting. Lots of folks shoot that way and we possess an inherant knack for it if honed. Part of my firearms instructor qualifications for work required me to take a instinct shooting portion of the course.

Want to see some crazy bow shooting? Check out the hella bad ass stylings of Byron Ferguson. Makes two fisted crossbow shooting seem tame. And he isn't using movie FX.

Once saw a dude shoot asprin out of the air with a bow shot from behind his back too. Again....two fisted shooting? Yawn...

[Omote]

I can;t remember the name of the archer, but he's an older gentleman, who is an expert marksmen with the longbow. He can shoot a water droplet out of the sky at 25 feet and can do this 2 out every 3 attempts. That is crazy bow trickery! The asparin trick made me think of this.
~O
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[dachda]

Here's some crazy trick shooting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M1P13tVr2I
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[Arazmus]

Treebore wrote:
Yes, yes it is. Extremely brilliant.

Such Modesty.
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[Arazmus]

DangerDwarf wrote:
The C&C light crossbow weighs 6lbs. While akward, it would not be a tremendous feat of strength.

As for aiming? Instinct shooting. Lots of folks shoot that way and we possess an inherant knack for it if honed. Part of my firearms instructor qualifications for work required me to take a instinct shooting portion of the course.

Want to see some crazy bow shooting? Check out the hella bad ass stylings of Byron Ferguson. Makes two fisted crossbow shooting seem tame. And he isn't using movie FX.

Once saw a dude shoot asprin out of the air with a bow shot from behind his back too. Again....two fisted shooting? Yawn...

You aren't taking parallax (as they use the term in competitive shooting) into account, each side of the brain trying to reconcile what the opposite hand is doing. It's messy, not impossible, just messy. It certainly justifies an imposed penalty that naturally is lessened as the PC rises in level (i.e. practice).
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I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg

[DangerDwarf]

I didn't delve into that as I'm simply pointing out to the naysayers that it is possible to accomplish. As with a lot of instinct shooting it largely depends on honing muscle memory.

Think the russians used to train their follks in two-fisted shooting. Called it macedonian shooting or somesuch.

[serleran]

Or, Kentucky Riflemen who were known for "shooting from the hip." Matter of fact, I think that is where that phrase developed...

Anyway, if it were to happen in my game, I'd allow it. If it makes the game more fun or interesting, than sure. Just be cautious when approaching the drow who are using repeating uzi-bows with poisoned quarrels...
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[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
Or, Kentucky Riflemen who were known for "shooting from the hip." Matter of fact, I think that is where that phrase developed...

Yeah, I don't use the sites on my rifles unless I'm going for pin-point accuracy. As a kid I had a BB gun with jacked up sites so got really good at point and shoot.

serleran wrote:
Just be cautious when approaching the drow who are using repeating uzi-bows with poisoned quarrels...

Word.

[serleran]

Y'know, a similar but not really related thought -- do ogres need to use heavy crossbows, because the little ones are just unusable in their fat, green, hands? Or, because they don't have "triggers," any old thing with the ability to push/pull could use it? And, what is the damage of an ogre-sized heavy crossbow? I'm going with torsion catapult damage, like 3d8 or something. Take that tree trunk through the torso and tell me it dunna hurt!
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