Fizz wrote:
To get your value of 30,000 XP total, it would have to be linear. But that seems to disagree with the text. It's rather confusing the way it's worded.
-Fizz
Twas my understanding, from Gary, that the progression was linear. So thats the way I play it. 8)
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
I started on a list, based on the Secondary Skills tabled in the Gygax DMG (and if you want a list, thats where I'd start). But then I took a page from Over The Edge (an early 90s Tweet RPG that is pretty good), and decided to make any secondary skills I do somewhat open, letting the player define it. The only real restriction is that the more narrowly defined the skill, the better the character is at it in relation to everyone else (and many narrow skills _can't_ be attempted by a non-trained person).
So, smithing would be a broad skill, and cover different types of metalsmithing (and in my game world, mostly focused around blacksmithing). However, goldsmithing or gemsmithing is much more narrow. Similarly, hunting would be a broad skill, but trapmaking would be narrow.
I use an expanded 2E D&D secondary skills list. It's included in my house rules but, since you use the CZ: Class Options & Skills, you might find it of limited use...
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8
I have been giving it a lot of thought, trying to come up with something that will jive with the 'less is more' philosophy that seems to drive C&C.
The skills and options skillset looks OK, but a bit expensive in experience and a little cumbersome. So how to give NPCs a quick unobtrusive although reasonably useful skill framework, including a good way to fill in background for the PCs, without adding a boatload of houserules or doing it completely freeform?
What I am thinking of doing is taking the Careers from a little free game that was done by Simon Washburne (sp?) Called Barbarians of Lemuria and using a modified version to describe and define not only NPC careers but PC backgrounds. Mechanically it will resemble the Skills and Options, but not be as rules heavy. So one phrase will tell me what kind of things the character can do without having a big long laundry list. And PCs will have just basic outlines of the sorts of things their character might know (outside of class), and it is just a matter of assigning a stat and a challenge level. Examples; Wench has streetwise, seduction, cook, evade, stealth, etc. Sailor has sailing, rope, climb, foreign ports, navigate, etc. Use whatever stat for a base that seems logical, with Primes giving the advantage as usual. For NPCs, decide how good they are on the spot or make a note for the individual in a scene. This would determine, or rather further define, a PCs skills outside his class without obsessive defining and long lists. And I think encourage roleplaying , as they would probably be trying to find new ways to fit the background into the game, and whatever was happening.
I am still thinking about how to 'charge' or how many 'careers' to give out. Experience points like Skills and Options, slots like the RC or whatever. Right now I am leaning towards one 'career' plus one for each INT bonus point. That is one for INT up to 12, 2 for INT 13-15, etc. Then +1 or +2 skill modifier to add to the stat mod. for PCs with an option to add to that for some exp. cost (as Skills and Options, but probably a flat rate, and not as expensive) and just use case by case judgement for NPCs, depending on how competent I want them to be. So I might have a PC who started off as a scullery maid (wench) in a tavern, and became so bitter she becomes an Assassin. And so on. That would help define how the character approaches the game, give a handle so to speak, without a lot of extra little detail work.
Metathiax wrote:
I use an expanded 2E D&D secondary skills list. It's included in my house rules but, since you use the CZ: Class Options & Skills, you might find it of limited use...
Hi Methathiax - I am thinking of using your necromancer class from your house rules. There are some spells on your list that aren't in the house rules - are these also homebrew, or are they in an other game?
Quote:
Hi Methathiax - I am thinking of using your necromancer class from your house rules. There are some spells on your list that aren't in the house rules - are these also homebrew, or are they in an other game?
The spells you are referring to probably are taken from Colin Chapman's fine work. I believe I have linked his document in the "source material" section of my house rules. By the way, I will soon be updating the necromancer's spells list in a new version of my house rules. I will also be adding a few core spells which I feel are needed to fill some gaps in all of the caster classes' lists...
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8
Here is another Secondary Skill I developed for my Hyborian Age setting. The inspiration comes from the Lejendary Adventure ability of the same name, plus the original UA Barbarian by Gary.
It allows creating nomad characters without the need to create a new class. Simply take a Barbarian, give him this secondary skill, and you have a Nomad (it should sound familiar to those who have the Conan d20 book)
NOMADIC
(wisdom - prime)
This skill refers to nomad tribes and peoples, survival in open lands, identification (fauna and flora), crafting necessities and weapons, animal herding, roping, travelling long distances. Acquisition of this ability replicates the Horsemanship ability of a knight (although it can be applied to other mounts, e.g. camels, depending on the background of the character), and the Survival and Track abilities of a ranger. Should a ranger take this ability, he would receive an additional +2 to all Track checks per level of this skill and +2 per level to all Survival checks.
I'm using slightly modified RISUS rules (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) for secondary skills. Each player gets 6 "points" to assign to categories that they make up (and I approve). Each point represents a +1 bonus to ability checks that concern their skill. This gives 1st level characters a definite boost, but that's okay with me. The skill bonuses only apply to skill checks - never attack or damage or saving throws.
First level characters begin with either two backgrounds selected from the chart below, or three backgrounds rolled randomly on the chart below. Ability checks involving backgrounds are treated as if the ability is prime. If it is already prime, an additional +2 bonus is applied to the ability check. An additional background is gained at levels 4, 8, and 12.
RANDOM BACKGROUND TABLE
D100 BACKGROUND
01 Aristocrat*
02-04 Beggar
05-07 Blacksmith
08-10 Brewer
11-13 Carpenter
14-16 Carter
17-19 Clerk of Law*
20-22 Domestic
23-25 Ecclesiastic*
26-28 Farmer
29-31 Fisher
32-34 Healer
35-37 Hunter
38-40 Husbandman
41-43 Innkeeper*
44-46 Jeweler
47-49 Leather Worker
50-52 Limner
53-55 Mason
56-58 Merchant*
59-61 Miller
62-64 Miner
65-67 Mummer
68-70 Musician
71-73 Rat Catcher
74-76 Sailor
77-79 Scholar*
80-82 Scoundrel
83-85 Scribe*
86-88 Soldier
89-91 Tailor
92-94 Trapper
95-97 Weaver
98-00 Woodcutter
* Characters with this background gain Literacy for free.
andakitty wrote:
So, you just treat them all as prime, and never add any more skill level? How about a +1 at intervals, instead of another background skill?
He just says they are "treated as if Prime", which to me implies adding your level as well.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
....but since these are background skills, they are supposed to be 'passing familiarity', skills no longer practiced in favor of class ability 'skills', right? Isn't that the whole point? It seems to me that they would be base 12 and you would NOT add level to rolls involving them. Or am I just off the track entirely?
Treebore wrote:
He just says they are "treated as if Prime", which to me implies adding your level as well.
Why "implies"? The concept of Prime and levels are two different things. The level applies to class abilities, Prime refers to attributes. A Ranger without a Wisdom prime would still apply his level to Track checks. Therefore I would say that secondary skills would not be entitled to adding a level, since they are by definition secondary (the same happens with Gary's secondary skills).
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
That is what I was thinking. Maybe add a +1 here and there for secondary skills that are actually successfully used in play? Like a wizard with 'jeweler' who manages to craft a gem to be enchanted? But how often to give out such bonuses, if at all? Just judgement call, I guess.
It really does seem to me that treating secondary rolls as Prime whether they are or not makes sense, but without adding level. That way it also seems to make sense to let the wizard climb if he had 'sailor', but he shouldn't get the level bonus because he hasn't been in ship's rigging since he was a young man...so if he had a non-prime DEX, which was 16, he could try to climb and it would be +2 and base 12, right? And if he tried to climb often, might be entitled to add a +1 at some point. On the other hand, if it were something that the PC might know about as a result of his class, go ahead and add the level (as long as it is not a class ability/skill of some other class). And just decide on the fly how good NPCs are at whatever. Does that sound like I understand all this adequately? Or am I just hopelessly off-track when it comes to the intent of the game? Slightly confused, I fear.
andakitty wrote:
That way it also seems to make sense to let the wizard climb if he had 'sailor', but he shouldn't get the level bonus because he hasn't been in ship's rigging since he was a young man...so if he had a non-prime DEX, which was 16, he could try to climb and it would be +2 and base 12, right? And if he tried to climb often, might be entitled to add a +1 at some point. On the other hand, if it were something that the PC might know about as a result of his class, go ahead and add the level (as long as it is not a class ability/skill of some other class).
Thats pretty much how I handle it. Especially if, per your example, the wizard does tend to use that ability often, I'll eventually start granting him +1's.
andakitty wrote:
That is what I was thinking. Maybe add a +1 here and there for secondary skills that are actually successfully used in play? Like a wizard with 'jeweler' who manages to craft a gem to be enchanted? But how often to give out such bonuses, if at all? Just judgement call, I guess.
It really does seem to me that treating secondary rolls as Prime whether they are or not makes sense, but without adding level. That way it also seems to make sense to let the wizard climb if he had 'sailor', but he shouldn't get the level bonus because he hasn't been in ship's rigging since he was a young man...so if he had a non-prime DEX, which was 16, he could try to climb and it would be +2 and base 12, right? And if he tried to climb often, might be entitled to add a +1 at some point. On the other hand, if it were something that the PC might know about as a result of his class, go ahead and add the level (as long as it is not a class ability/skill of some other class). And just decide on the fly how good NPCs are at whatever. Does that sound like I understand all this adequately? Or am I just hopelessly off-track when it comes to the intent of the game? Slightly confused, I fear.
For non-primes the base is 18, not 12. Regarding the "how often to apply the bonus", you could refer to how Gary deals with secondary skills. Having a "level" in a skill allows +2 on the check. So, the Wizard who has some sailor abilities would add +2 to his Dex checks. If his Dex is Prime, then the base difficulty is 12. If not, it will be 18. Having a Prime helps a lot, it means that the character has in some way developed his attribute.
If the Wizard is really good at sailing, he could have two "levels" in the sailor skill, which would grant a +4; quite substantial. I guess most characters with a working knowledge of a skill would get a flat +2. The "professionals" a +4, the masters a +6 (which is on par with having a Prime). I would not personally go beyond third "level".
I was thinking of something a little different than the Skills and Options. Namely, anything granted by a secondary or background 'profession' and is not a class ability is treated as a prime, as suggested earlier in the thread. Was. So you consider around +6 to be 'master' level? That is a helpful guideline. I believe I am beginning to see how I want to do this.
I guess I will adjust the challenge bases to 15/10, and allow checks from background skills on a case by case basis; make a list of 'common challenges' as I saw on cncplayers.net, and only allow level adds to those, class abilities and knowledge/skills likely to be known by the PCs according to class. Backgrounds will be loosely based on the list from Barbarians of Lemuria (it includes colorful ones like Wench and Gladiator) with the suggested skills plus whatever seems logical, and use the base as Prime or non-Prime and stat modifiers with no further modification. NPCs will be graded according to the +2/+4/+6 gradient suggested. This arrangement will give the PCs a loosely structured set of basic/background skills over and above their usual ones and still have NPCs who are better at such skills. PCs will have only passing familiarity with background based skills for the most part. Maybe give bonuses to PCs by level at some rate, maybe 1 plus INT modifier per level to some skill drawn from background, limit +1 per skill per level (with each +1 costing more than the previous, like 1/2/4/8, +4 being maximum for PCs). Maybe allow some weapon training for Wizards and such. How does all this sound?
Sounds a bit complex to me, but if it works for you.
Always keep in mind the correspondence with a character level when you assign bonuses. A +2 to a skill would be the equivalent of a 2nd level character, which should already be considered "above the norm". A +6 is a 6th level character, so he would be definitely good at what he does!
What do you mean by "cost"? Do you plan to use XPs to buy ranks? Increasing costs is definitely a good idea. You may (again) give a look at Gary's document to see how costs could be handled. Or, you may look at my advancement table, which are built taking into account whether a skill is tied to a prime, and how "general" the skill is. The table does not need counting XPs, and is easy to use.
The Skill and Option thing looks complex, to me. I am trying to find a way I find less complex! It seems foreign to even try to tack a skill on to class and level system, to tell the truth. Incomplete. It bugs me.
No, I am not going to use experience to buy the skill bonuses because that is adding complexity, IMO. Just assign points by level. Maybe. Or I may not bother with it, which is more likely, and just leave the secondary professions as flavor and a way to define what a PC can and cannot do outside class and common tasks...that is really simple, but I am not sure I will stick with the game, especially when the shiny new BRP books comes out. Oh, well.
I just use the 3E skill system. You have the skill base TN is 12 + level + attribute bonus.
If you plan on going to high levels (9+), your going to find base TN 10 and 15 are too low.
12 and 18 work where it is hard at lower levels and gets easier to make as you level.
Setting it at 10 and 15 at low level will make it sickenly easy if your game gets to higher levels.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
andakitty wrote:
The Skill and Option thing looks complex, to me. I am trying to find a way I find less complex! It seems foreign to even try to tack a skill on to class and level system, to tell the truth. Incomplete. It bugs me.
No, I am not going to use experience to buy the skill bonuses because that is adding complexity, IMO. Just assign points by level. Maybe. Or I may not bother with it, which is more likely, and just leave the secondary professions as flavor and a way to define what a PC can and cannot do outside class and common tasks...that is really simple, but I am not sure I will stick with the game, especially when the shiny new BRP books comes out. Oh, well.
One thing I have been considering doing with my freeform secondary skills is to use the old Stormbringer/CoC "advance only if you use them" system. So, advancement in a skill is by level, but only if you attempted to use it the previous level. This gives the players a chance to advance their secondary skills, but only when they use them (and I'd probably allow them to study them in downtime as well, to get a chance to improve them).
I still haven't figured the exact mechanics - probably something as simple as a SIEGE roll, minus their current skill level (making it harder to gain secondary skill levels).
