Troll Lord Games

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:29 am**

I plan to use the 1e secondary skills for my game. What kind of bonus would you all give to a character trying to accomplish something related to their secondary skill? I was thinking maybe giving them a bonus equal to their level. Any ideas or thoughts?

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:09 pm**

I wouldn't tie the secondary skill to the PC's level unless the secondary skill was directly related to the PC's class (e.g. a ranger with Hunter/fisher). For example, if the PC's secondary skill is Tailor/weaver, then advancing as a Cleric wouldn't improve his skill as a tailor, IMO. If the secondary skill is unrelated to the class and the PC wanted to increase his ability, I'd let him spend some XP on it to do so (e.g. similar to Gary's approach in the Options and Skills document). That would represent time and energy spent on improving his skill.

For the most part, I wouldn't even require a roll for secondary skill stuff. I'd just let him succeed (e.g. you go hunting and bring in a brace of coneys..., your background in masonry tells you the wall was constructed in three stages, the earliest looking like the fine stonework of dwarvish masons and the latest being much cruder and recent work typical of goblins...), unless it was something where the outcome was critical.

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:40 pm**

Thanks PJ for the help.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
For the most part, I wouldn't even require a roll for secondary skill stuff. I'd just let him succeed, unless it was something where the outcome was critical.

Would you add a bonus or just make it a stright attribute roll (for critical situations)?

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:56 pm**

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I wouldn't tie the secondary skill to the PC's level unless the secondary skill was directly related to the PC's class (e.g. a ranger with Hunter/fisher). For example, if the PC's secondary skill is Tailor/weaver, then advancing as a Cleric wouldn't improve his skill as a tailor, IMO. If the secondary skill is unrelated to the class and the PC wanted to increase his ability, I'd let him spend some XP on it to do so (e.g. similar to Gary's approach in the Options and Skills document). That would represent time and energy spent on improving his skill.

For the most part, I wouldn't even require a roll for secondary skill stuff. I'd just let him succeed (e.g. you go hunting and bring in a brace of coneys..., your background in masonry tells you the wall was constructed in three stages, the earliest looking like the fine stonework of dwarvish masons and the latest being much cruder and recent work typical of goblins...), unless it was something where the outcome was critical.

What PJ said. But if a check is required, I will give them a simple +2. Target number is prime associated (12 or 18). Usually, I will require no check, however, as PJ notes.

--Ghul

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:20 pm**

Rigon wrote:
Would you add a bonus or just make it a stright attribute roll (for critical situations)?

I'd make it a straight attribute check against whatever CL I thought appropriate. In other words, instead of setting one target number/CL that all characters must aim for (a situation which requires you to have a more detailed and defined skill/bonus system in order to differentiate between the PCs and their various leves of ability), I'd tailor the CL to the task and the character performing the task. It seems to me that this approach makes sense for a strongly class/archetype based game.

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:39 pm**

I would deal with them like CZ Secondary Skills, i.e. +2 per level of the skill. Since you do not use levels, you can assume a flat level 1, which is a +2, as said before.

As with all other things C&C, I would roll only when necessary.

Cheers,

Antonio

Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:18 pm**

I use Secondary Skills in my games, almost exactly from 1E, excpet I have added a relavant attribute tied to each one. Secondary skills use the relavant associated attribute bonus to beat the Challange Class.

Simple, effective and has worked just fine in my games.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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Posted: **Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:38 pm**

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I wouldn't tie the secondary skill to the PC's level unless the secondary skill was directly related to the PC's class (e.g. a ranger with Hunter/fisher). For example, if the PC's secondary skill is Tailor/weaver, then advancing as a Cleric wouldn't improve his skill as a tailor, IMO. If the secondary skill is unrelated to the class and the PC wanted to increase his ability, I'd let him spend some XP on it to do so (e.g. similar to Gary's approach in the Options and Skills document). That would represent time and energy spent on improving his skill.

For the most part, I wouldn't even require a roll for secondary skill stuff. I'd just let him succeed (e.g. you go hunting and bring in a brace of coneys..., your background in masonry tells you the wall was constructed in three stages, the earliest looking like the fine stonework of dwarvish masons and the latest being much cruder and recent work typical of goblins...), unless it was something where the outcome was critical.

I agree. In fact, that's what I'm planning on doing - your Secondary Skill or "Background" just tells me what you can do and know automatically. Normally there shouldn't even be a roll. If there were a situation requiring extreme heroics, an attribute check would be in order - one that would be harder or even impossible for someone without that specialized knowledge.
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Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:52 am**

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I'd make it a straight attribute check against whatever CL I thought appropriate. In other words, instead of setting one target number/CL that all characters must aim for (a situation which requires you to have a more detailed and defined skill/bonus system in order to differentiate between the PCs and their various leves of ability), I'd tailor the CL to the task and the character performing the task. It seems to me that this approach makes sense for a strongly class/archetype based game.

Thanks PJ. This is what I've been thinking about doing since your first response.

Omote wrote:
I use Secondary Skills in my games, almost exactly from 1E, excpet I have added a relavant attribute tied to each one. Secondary skills use the relavant associated attribute bonus to beat the Challange Class.

Care to share with the rest of the class?

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:32 am**

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I'd make it a straight attribute check against whatever CL I thought appropriate. In other words, instead of setting one target number/CL that all characters must aim for (a situation which requires you to have a more detailed and defined skill/bonus system in order to differentiate between the PCs and their various leves of ability), I'd tailor the CL to the task and the character performing the task. It seems to me that this approach makes sense for a strongly class/archetype based game.

If you change the CL depending on the character, it is equivalent to that character having some sort of bonus on the roll with a fixed CL.

I think an explicit bonus reduces the work of the CK and puts all tasks on the same "baseline" difficulty; this is the role of the CL concept, after all.

Cheers,

Antonio

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:32 am**

Quote:
If you change the CL depending on the character, it is equivalent to that character having some sort of bonus on the roll with a fixed CL.

I think an explicit bonus reduces the work of the CK and puts all tasks on the same "baseline" difficulty; this is the role of the CL concept, after all.

I agree it's equivalent, and you're correct that assigning different CLs for different PCs undercuts the intended role of the CL. Maybe a better way of describing it would be "add modifiers based on who is attempting the task."

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:29 pm**

Not me. The skill bundles themselves where ok, but I didn't like using XPs to purchase them.
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Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:30 pm**

DangerDwarf wrote:
Initially I was a bit lukewarm in my reception of the Secondary Skill system as presented in the CZ download. However, I've found myself beginning to like the system and it has been implemented in my campaigns.

Has anyone else who uses it largely "as is" developed a list of their own Secondary Skills to add to it? I'd like to expand the list but currently am more focused on hammering out my Midnight conversions for my upcoming campaign.

I added two skills to the whole: Healing, to deal with clerics in Age of Despair campaign (Dragonlance) and Leadership, to replace the Noble class in Dragonlance. You can find them in the other threads here, the one on Nobles and the other on First aid.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:28 pm**

What is the "CZ" download?

Thanks.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:32 pm**

Eisenmann wrote:
What is the "CZ" download?

Thanks.

There's a download on the Troll Lords' site for an optional skill system courtesy of Gary's Castle Zagyg setting.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:35 pm**

Eisenmann wrote:
What is the "CZ" download?

Thanks.

Here: Download

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:51 pm**

DangerDwarf wrote:
Here: Download

Thanks, Orpheus and DangerDwarf. I didn't connect CZ with Castle Zagyg. Turns out that I already had the document. *slaps forehead* I went on a C&C downloading tear after playing this past Saturday.

Once again, thanks.

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:59 am**

I kinda like it too, you can also make them more common by doing away with the xp cost and define a rate to give them to characters instead, being 1 per leves or 1 for every X levels, for example.

I haven't used it, but i think Midnight calls for a skill system too.
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Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:49 pm**

Nifelhein wrote:
I kinda like it too, you can also make them more common by doing away with the xp cost and define a rate to give them to characters instead, being 1 per leves or 1 for every X levels, for example.

I haven't used it, but i think Midnight calls for a skill system too.

If you want to maintain the working of the skills system, you cannot give 1/level, as it would make the skills too powerful. Also, these skills are secondary by definition, so considering that level is not added to skill checks, the overall advancement should be slower than the level progression, so 1 every two levels would also be too generous.

With these desiderata in mind, a good rate is 1 skill level increase every 3 or 4 levels. This also has the "side" benefit of not having to keep track of skill levels frequently (a major headache in 3.x).

Cheers,

Antonio

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:50 pm**

I've no use for skills in a RPG, unless the game is classless, when archetypes are destroyed and what your PC can do is determined by other means. The whole point of a class system is to have a regimented concept of character type, and preset notions of what the game world is like. To add extra to that, players and DMs can create backgrounds for their characters.

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:18 pm**

I think the same as you, rabin, but those seeking more intensive games they can get those higher rates instead. i can see your point too, Serleran, but I actually believe there is not good way to portray somethings without such a system, like giving a blacksmith a +2 bonus to such tests.

Personally I think the CZ one goes a little too high, but is a good one anyway.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:39 pm**

I think one of the best systems would be the 2nd Ed AD&D Non-weapon Proficiency system. It's easily adapted to the Siege Engine, descriptions are already written out, it's flexible, has lots of choices.

The only questions would be how character gains them and improve in them.

The easiest solution would be for them to be predefined at character creation- improve at say, +1 every 2 levels automatically, (they're secondary after all).

Or you could go for a more advanced system with `slots' assigned every few levels.

-Fizz

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:32 pm**

serleran wrote:
I've no use for skills in a RPG, unless the game is classless, when archetypes are destroyed and what your PC can do is determined by other means. The whole point of a class system is to have a regimented concept of character type, and preset notions of what the game world is like. To add extra to that, players and DMs can create backgrounds for their characters.

I agree with this, a full blown skill system defeats the purpose of character archetypes.

But I want to give the characters more depth.

Perhaps let each one choose a "Profession" that is game appropriate. (fletcher, blacksmith, brew master, distiller of spirits, etc.). It would let them do whatever is necessary to the profession, but without alot of book keeping.
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Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:53 pm**

I'm looking for a skill system for C&C that complements the classes without having to go into defining professions or anything like that. Just something to give characters a slight boost and just a touch of differentiation.

Last night I read the CZ skill set and like another poster, I'm not keen on buying the skill sets with XP. Nor am I all that thrilled with the list. It's just me.

I also read through non-weapon proficiencies in my old 2nd edition Players Handbook and came away unthrilled. Now I kinda remember why I didn't use 'em way back in the day.

I can't find what I'm searchin' for.

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:54 pm**

Fizz: You could just port over 2e Proficiencies as is in regards to advancement. If I used Proficiencies, that's how I'd do it.

Pineappleleader: Look into secondary skills from 1e. That's what I use. It gives the PCs more depth without adding any mechanics.

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

Posted: **Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm**

Quote:
Pineappleleader: Look into secondary skills from 1e. That's what I use. It gives the PCs more depth without adding any mechanics.

I implemented such a secondary skills system (mostly for added PC depth) in my house rules if you are interested.
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Posted: **Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:08 am**

Just an fyi, on average if one were to add 5% to the xp totals for the character classes, one would end up with about 10 ranks of skill via the CZ backgrounds by 12th level. Just a thought.
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Peter Bradley

Posted: **Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:11 am**

gideon_thorne wrote:
Just an fyi, on average if one were to add 5% to the xp totals for the character classes, one would end up with about 10 ranks of skill via the CZ backgrounds by 12th level. Just a thought.

Let's see, a 12th level fighter has 1,000,000 XP. 5% of that is 50,000 XP.

To get to 10 ranks of a Prime skill would be 3000 + 6000 + 9000 + ... + 30000 = 165,000. That's 16.5% of his total experience points.

Or am i misunderstanding how purchasing these secondary skills works in CZ?

-Fizz

Posted: **Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:17 am**

Fizz wrote:
Let's see, a 12th level fighter has 1,000,000 XP. 5% of that is 50,000 XP.

To get to 10 ranks of a Prime skill would be 3000 + 6000 + 9000 + ... + 30000 = 165,000. That's 16.5% of his total experience points.

Or am i misunderstanding how purchasing these secondary skills works in CZ?

-Fizz

Twould be a total of 30,000 xp actually for a prime.. 3,000 xp per rank.
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Peter Bradley

Posted: **Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:31 am**

gideon_thorne wrote:
Twould be a total of 30,000 xp actually for a prime.. 3,000 xp per rank.

Well, that seems to be at odds with how the text reads:

"Each Skill has a base cost in experience points. The acquisition of thin that skill costs that amount. Thereafter cost is the base multiplied by the level one is attaining. For example, acquiring a level three prime skill costs 9,000 experience points."

This means that it gets more expensive with each level that you want to buy. It costs you 3000 for the first level. Another 6000 for the second level, another 9000 for the third. And so on.

To get your value of 30,000 XP total, it would have to be linear. But that seems to disagree with the text. It's rather confusing the way it's worded.

-Fizz

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Secondary Skills

Secondary Skills

Re: Secondary Skills