Again, skills, Prime or attributes?
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:29 pm
This discussion is going on over on the C&C forum on Dragonsfoot, and I made a couple of posts that I think are pretty good on making my point of view on this "issue", so I am copy/pasting these posts to here to see how the discussion goes this time around:
Now as to why "training" has more of an effect than "attribute", well, let me give my thoughts on that.
First, lets remember that C&C is not about being as precise as possible, it gives up a lot of that to allow for being very general, and hence very flexible, which allows for the SIEGE mechanic to work like it does.
Now as to trained versus inherent attribute bonus. Let me start with STR. Before I became a disabled Veteran I used to be very big and strong, to the point where one of my nicer nick names was "The Wall". So I was very physical, swimming, hiking, boxing, martial arts, weight lifting, etc...
I am also pretty smart, I had an IQ of 138 before I became disabled and suffered approximately 20 IQ points worth of brain damage. So nowadays I operate with a 118 IQ, so I'll discuss INT later.
Like I said, I used to be very strong, but I can tell you that being strong did not tell me how to best use my STR. I could hit hard, but it was my training via boxing and martial arts that taught me to hit harder, a LOT harder. Without that training I would never have become capable of breaking boards and bricks on a regular basis, most importantly, WITHOUT breaking my hands, wrists, arms, etc....
Rest assured, if I had tried to do any of that without the training, I would have broken parts of my body, and likely would not have succeeded in breaking the boards, let alone the bricks.
So to me, training is far more important than the attribute. For example, I had a Sensei who was a very "average" looking guy, a very normal looking build, but he broke the boards and bricks, and everything else, better than I did, simply because his trained discipline was still significantly further along than mine.
When we sparred, my very superior strength allowed me to give him a run for his money, and even to "win" on a semi frequent basis, but by and large his training beat my strength AND training a good 70% of the time.
So training is far more important than the raw ability score, over all.
Now let me cover intelligence.
Like I said, I have a good IQ, and at one point it was significantly higher than it is now. I have 2 Bachelors of Science degrees, on top of my training on nuclear weapons systems in the Navy, plus I was able to "wander" a lot in college, since it was being paid for by the VA, so I also have 5 or 6 "minors".
My INT score, whatever it was, or currently is, did not make me know what I know about Psychology, Biology, Anthropology, Political Science, History, Probability and Statistics, Electronics, Pneumatics, Hydraulics, Nukes, etc... my TRAINING did. My raw INT definitely helped with how quickly I was able to learn, how well I was able to remember things, but it was pure training that stuffed everything I know into my head, not my raw INT.
So IMO, training is hands down a far bigger factor on how much you know, and how good you are at what you do.
So to me, having "training" (Primes in C&C) have far more effect on what a person, let alone a character, knows, and knows how to do, than raw attribute scores does, makes far more sense to me.
Also note that I did not say that the attribute score has no effects, I am just saying that training has far more to do with what you know how to do than the attribute does.
Granted, the attribute determines the range of what you can learn and be strong enough, or fast enough, to do, but its the training that has far more to do with exactly how well you do things, or how much you know about what you have studied and experienced, etc....
As for levelling and its effects, well refer to my paragraph about my Sensei in my prior post. His "experience" is what made him, and kept him, superior to me in martial arts. I knew the moves he knew, I knew the principles he knew, but it was his disciplined experience that made him my superior, my Sensei.
I know Biology, I know Psychology, but its the Biologist who has been working and researching in the field for years who is the better Biologist, it is the Psychologist who has been working in the field counseling people for years, who is the better Psychologist.
This "experience" is what class levels represent, the Prime attributes and Attribute modifiers represent basic ability and basic training, class levels represent what our life experiences teach us.
and here is the thread if you want original context, and to see the thoughts/opinions others have posted over there:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 4&start=60
My posts that I copy/pasted above is on page 4 and 5 of the DF thread.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Now as to why "training" has more of an effect than "attribute", well, let me give my thoughts on that.
First, lets remember that C&C is not about being as precise as possible, it gives up a lot of that to allow for being very general, and hence very flexible, which allows for the SIEGE mechanic to work like it does.
Now as to trained versus inherent attribute bonus. Let me start with STR. Before I became a disabled Veteran I used to be very big and strong, to the point where one of my nicer nick names was "The Wall". So I was very physical, swimming, hiking, boxing, martial arts, weight lifting, etc...
I am also pretty smart, I had an IQ of 138 before I became disabled and suffered approximately 20 IQ points worth of brain damage. So nowadays I operate with a 118 IQ, so I'll discuss INT later.
Like I said, I used to be very strong, but I can tell you that being strong did not tell me how to best use my STR. I could hit hard, but it was my training via boxing and martial arts that taught me to hit harder, a LOT harder. Without that training I would never have become capable of breaking boards and bricks on a regular basis, most importantly, WITHOUT breaking my hands, wrists, arms, etc....
Rest assured, if I had tried to do any of that without the training, I would have broken parts of my body, and likely would not have succeeded in breaking the boards, let alone the bricks.
So to me, training is far more important than the attribute. For example, I had a Sensei who was a very "average" looking guy, a very normal looking build, but he broke the boards and bricks, and everything else, better than I did, simply because his trained discipline was still significantly further along than mine.
When we sparred, my very superior strength allowed me to give him a run for his money, and even to "win" on a semi frequent basis, but by and large his training beat my strength AND training a good 70% of the time.
So training is far more important than the raw ability score, over all.
Now let me cover intelligence.
Like I said, I have a good IQ, and at one point it was significantly higher than it is now. I have 2 Bachelors of Science degrees, on top of my training on nuclear weapons systems in the Navy, plus I was able to "wander" a lot in college, since it was being paid for by the VA, so I also have 5 or 6 "minors".
My INT score, whatever it was, or currently is, did not make me know what I know about Psychology, Biology, Anthropology, Political Science, History, Probability and Statistics, Electronics, Pneumatics, Hydraulics, Nukes, etc... my TRAINING did. My raw INT definitely helped with how quickly I was able to learn, how well I was able to remember things, but it was pure training that stuffed everything I know into my head, not my raw INT.
So IMO, training is hands down a far bigger factor on how much you know, and how good you are at what you do.
So to me, having "training" (Primes in C&C) have far more effect on what a person, let alone a character, knows, and knows how to do, than raw attribute scores does, makes far more sense to me.
Also note that I did not say that the attribute score has no effects, I am just saying that training has far more to do with what you know how to do than the attribute does.
Granted, the attribute determines the range of what you can learn and be strong enough, or fast enough, to do, but its the training that has far more to do with exactly how well you do things, or how much you know about what you have studied and experienced, etc....
As for levelling and its effects, well refer to my paragraph about my Sensei in my prior post. His "experience" is what made him, and kept him, superior to me in martial arts. I knew the moves he knew, I knew the principles he knew, but it was his disciplined experience that made him my superior, my Sensei.
I know Biology, I know Psychology, but its the Biologist who has been working and researching in the field for years who is the better Biologist, it is the Psychologist who has been working in the field counseling people for years, who is the better Psychologist.
This "experience" is what class levels represent, the Prime attributes and Attribute modifiers represent basic ability and basic training, class levels represent what our life experiences teach us.
and here is the thread if you want original context, and to see the thoughts/opinions others have posted over there:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 4&start=60
My posts that I copy/pasted above is on page 4 and 5 of the DF thread.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames