Raising attributes

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:24 pm

How do you handle it? Do you let you players raise an attribute as they level? The PHB says that it's more or less up to the CK, so I'm curious as to what you all are doing in your campaigns.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:11 pm

Inkpot wrote:
How do you handle it?

Manual of Bodily Health, Manual of Gainful Exercise, Manual of Quickness in Action...

I honestly dont have a problem either way. I currently prefer doing it in C&C as I did in previous editions of AD&D. The books or other items.

In 3e I never had a problem with that method either though.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:48 pm

6,000 xp per 1 point raised.
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johns · Post by **johns** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:07 pm

Here's an idea stolen from Gygax's 1E cavalier - have the characters roll d% for each of their chosen prime attributes (since a designating a prime is supposed to indicate focus and training). At each level increase, they roll 2d10 and spread the total of that roll among those prime percentages. When a percentage equals or surpasses 100, the ability increases by 1.

So, a human ranger might have Strength, Wisdom and Dexterity as primes. At character creation, he rolls a 15, 88, and 44 respectively. When he reaches 2nd level, he rolls 2d10 and comes up with 15. He decides to add 12 points to Wisdom (making it 100) and the remaining 3 to Dexterity, making it 47. Since the Wisdom percentile has reached 100, the ranger's Wisdom score increases by 1 point.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:45 pm

Or, for simplicity's sake....how about upon every 3rd level reached (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, etc.), you can raise one attribute of your choice by 1? Of course, this would be in addition to any magical increases from magic items, divine intervention, etc.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:49 pm

Inkpot wrote:
Or, for simplicity's sake....how about upon every 3rd level reached (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, etc.), you can raise one attribute of your choice by 1? Of course, this would be in addition to any magical increases from magic items, divine intervention, etc.
Ink

Here is the problem with that idea; it shouldn't neccessarily be automatic. Time and training change attribute scores, hence my thought on an xp cost. And not all attributes get raised at the same rate, people change their focus and whatnot, so the aquisition of such ought to be all over the place. IMHO anyhow.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:58 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Here is the problem with that idea; it shouldn't neccessarily be automatic. Time and training change attribute scores

Isn't that what leveling up represents? I'm not seeing the difference in my method and your method....or do you mean that it's 6000 xp that is spent on raising the attribute and cannot also be used toward leveling up?

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:00 pm

I do it through training, which requires the expenditure of money, XP, and lots of time. Alternatively, one can find a spellcaster and attempt to convince them a permanent casting of "enhance attribute" is a good thing.... or, one can find a might magical book that can do the same. Otherwise, auto-gaining advancement to attributes is not the sort of thinking I want in my game.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:11 pm

Inkpot wrote:
Isn't that what leveling up represents? I'm not seeing the difference in my method and your method....or do you mean that it's 6000 xp that is spent on raising the attribute and cannot also be used toward leveling up?

Ink

Thats what I meant. XP is spent on raising a score and can't be used for anything else. This follows along with the idea of paying for an ability from another class, or paying xp for a background skill as done in the Yggsburgh rules. Im a mean old game master. If people want spazzy new abilties or higher scores, they can pay for them.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:50 pm

This is how I do it, since I usually "plan" a fair amount of down time in my games.

Player declares what stat they want to increase. They spend 8 hours per day, 5 days out of the week, to study/work out, for a month. Cost is 100 gold +100 gold of the stat bonus for the stat number being worked towards (IE going for a 17 is +2, so +200 gold, going for an 18 is +3, so +300 gold). At the end of the month they get a roll, the TN is the attribute score being worked towards, such as 17.

If they fail they can work towards it for another month, gaining a +1 towards their next roll. This +1 is cumulkative with number of months working towards the next stat.

I allow thses rules to work only for attaining racial maximums, which are usually an 17, 18, or 19, depending on what the racial bonus/penalties are.

To go above racial maximums will require one of those books DD mentions. Or to do it in less time with definite results, the books are great treasures.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:36 pm

btb, without magic I do not think it is possible to raise a characters stats.

IMC I use a limited number of feats, each stat has a feat that may be taken to raise it by one point.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:58 pm

Maliki wrote:
btb, without magic I do not think it is possible to raise a characters stats.

BTB, it doesn't say one way or the other. It's pretty much up to how someone wants to handle it.

Good fodder for the discussion on the third book, for those involved in it, perhaps?
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:00 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
BTB, it doesn't say one way or the other. It's pretty much up to how someone wants to handle it.

Good fodder for the discussion on the third book, for those involved in it, perhaps?

All I know is that my players are likely to mutiny if I don't give them some sort of method for increasing their ability scores - costly or no.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:06 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
BTB, it doesn't say one way or the other. It's pretty much up to how someone wants to handle it.

Good fodder for the discussion on the third book, for those involved in it, perhaps?

Yes, for sure. Mebbe, a section on CK methods to rid PCs of accumulated gold!
[And for loads of gold, the CK will throw a bone to the PC - per your example Gideon, for raising an attribute stat . . . CK take away 6K XPs!]
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:29 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Yes, for sure. Mebbe, a section on CK methods to rid PCs of accumulated gold!
[And for loads of gold, the CK will throw a bone to the PC - per your example Gideon, for raising an attribute stat . . . CK take away 6K XPs!]

Quite.. 6000 gp's would pay for the xp and 'training neccessary to raise an attribute easily. Especially if one does the 1gp to 1 xp rule as I do.

I would actually enjoy comming up with the rationale for raising each attribute. What sorts of teachers would one have to find?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:50 am

Maliki wrote:
btb, without magic I do not think it is possible to raise a characters stats.

IMC I use a limited number of feats, each stat has a feat that may be taken to raise it by one point.

Its just as possible as it is in real life. At one point in my life I was lucky to bench press 90 pounds just once, then there was a point in my life I could bench press 240 pounds ten times as reps. Now I would be lucky to bench press 100 pounds without blowing a hernia and going to the hospital.

Plus I know I am a hell of a lot smarter and wiser than I was when I was 18.

So that is why I have my house rules, and have been using them for about 10 years.

Plus remember, what goes up must always come down, eventually. There are plenty of monsters that can do that for you. If not the monsters, old age will eventually get them.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:53 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I would actually enjoy comming up with the rationale for raising each attribute. What sorts of teachers would one have to find?

The physical stats are the easiest. There are various strength and stamna exercizes to increase STR and CON, finding a trainer to do such shouldn't be too difficult. Same with DEX, programs designed for physical agility.

CHA? A bit more difficult, but I think it could be done in a variety of ways. From the confidence boosting classes and leadership courses of modern times, just apply it to the campaign setting.

Wisdom? Eh, I don't know here. Not something you can really teach, but can be gained through one's experiences.

Intelligence can be problematic, depending on your view of the stat. Does it represent learning or is it more akin to raw intelligence/IQ? If it is the latter, I don't really see how it can be helped.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:32 am

Take it from someone who has taken a bunch of IQ tests and learned about the "methodology" behind them. They are not an accurate test of raw intelligence. In reality they only see how much you have been able to learn in comparison to your "peers". So, given the IQ test you take, if you say had a job that has taught you a lot of electronics, or basic engineering because you do machine smithing, what have you, you will still score comparably to someone who went to college for 4 years.

I don't clearly remember the "accuracy" that an IQ could accurately/correctly indicate raw intelligence, but it is below 90%. I think it was actually around 80% accuracy. So out of every 10 people tested, 2 of them were either much smarter, or much less smarter, than the IQ test would indicate.

For example, the current presidents tested IQ was something like an 91. Does he act like a borderline brain damaged/mentally challenged individual to you? (putting aside any bias your political opinions may give you.)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:13 am

Quote:
CHA? A bit more difficult, but I think it could be done in a variety of ways. From the confidence boosting classes and leadership courses of modern times, just apply it to the campaign setting.

In the medieval to renaisance era and beyond, it was simply refered too as elocution and deportment lessons. The term 'finishing school' has come to replace such.

Quote:
Wisdom? Eh, I don't know here. Not something you can really teach, but can be gained through one's experiences.

Philosophic instruction in broad terms.

Quote:
Intelligence can be problematic, depending on your view of the stat. Does it represent learning or is it more akin to raw intelligence/IQ? If it is the latter, I don't really see how it can be helped.

It is often stated that, through education, one can increase ones intelligence. I see no reason why such a premise should not obtain in a game with base attributes? It goes without saying that not everyone starts with a genius brain.
One can learn if one applies oneself however.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:40 am

Treebore wrote:
For example, the current presidents tested IQ was something like an 91. Does he act like a borderline brain damaged/mentally challenged individual to you?

91 isn't even borderline. A majority of the world's population will fall within the 90-110 range of an IQ test. I'm not up to date on the scoring system anymore (Used to work at a unit which had a Mentally Retarded Offender Program) but I think mild retardation ranked at 55-70 range, even then it was closer to 68 for the high end I believe.

I know in the past, it was closer to 80 was classified as mild retardation but I think that was inexcess of 30 years ago.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:46 am

IQ / Description / % of Population

130+ / Very superior (genius) / 2.2%

120-129 / Superior / 6.7%

110-119 / High average / 16.1%

90-109 / Average / 50%

80-89 / Low average / 16.1%

70-79 / Borderline / 6.7%

Below 70 / Extremely low / 2.2%

Just to clarify.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:56 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
In the medieval to renaisance era and beyond, it was simply refered too as elocution and deportment lessons. The term 'finishing school' has come to replace such.

That hits it on the head. Quite a bit closer to what I was thinking.

Quote:
Philosophic instruction in broad terms.

I dunno, that's a bit debateable. The sheer number of philosophy majors I've met who were anything but wise makes that a luke warm prospect to me at best. Give me advice from the grizzled old king who has seen his kingdom through good and bad times over advice from the court philosopher any day.

Quote:
It is often stated that, through education, one can increase ones intelligence. I see no reason why such a premise should not obtain in a game with base attributes? It goes without saying that not everyone starts with a genius brain.
One can learn if one applies oneself however.

Again, it boils down to on how one views intelligence. Education can definately increase one's knowledge but does it really improve one's capacity to learn?

I'd prefer the Intelligence stat be viewed at education/learning. It would be far easier to explain increases in intelligence through hard work and study as opposed to increasing one's brain capacity.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:10 am

I allow a check every level. A character chooses an attribute and rolls a d20. If the check is greater than the attribute, the attribute is increased. If not, he can try at the next level.

In this way, advancement is not guaranteed, and the higher the attributes, the more difficult it becomes to grow.

Given the coarse granularity of bonuses with respect to attribute advancement, there is not a very high probability of increasing one's bonus.

Cheers,

Antonio

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:24 am

rabindranath72 wrote:
I allow a check every level. A character chooses an attribute and rolls a d20. If the check is greater than the attribute, the attribute is increased. If not, he can try at the next level.

In this way, advancement is not guaranteed, and the higher the attributes, the more difficult it becomes to grow.

Given the coarse granularity of bonuses with respect to attribute advancement, there is not a very high probability of increasing one's bonus.

Cheers,

Antonio

Hey! I like this idea. {Most of it horked}. I think I will use 3d6 for the roll, however. That way it is along a nice bell curve with improvements in the upper stats happening very rarely.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:10 pm

In my games, I have a different and simple kind of feat system. One of the feats each player can take is to raise an attribute. For example:
GREATER STRENGTH

Add +1 to a characters Strength score. This feat can be selected multiple times if desired.
Prerequisite: None.

Other then magic items, this is the only way to raise attributes in my games.

...............................................Omote

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:12 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
I allow a check every level. A character chooses an attribute and rolls a d20. If the check is greater than the attribute, the attribute is increased. If not, he can try at the next level.

A great idea. I never used this outside of the Call of Cthulhu skills system, but I can's see why it wouldn't work in a particularly high powered campaign. Nice.

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magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:23 pm

I go every 4 levels like 3.x. That makes sense for me and my players. I also raise the attributes of the NPCs of course as well to maintain balance (if balance is important to you.)
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:16 pm

Treebore wrote:
Its just as possible as it is in real life. At one point in my life I was lucky to bench press 90 pounds just once, then there was a point in my life I could bench press 240 pounds ten times as reps. Now I would be lucky to bench press 100 pounds without blowing a hernia and going to the hospital.

Plus I know I am a hell of a lot smarter and wiser than I was when I was 18.

So that is why I have my house rules, and have been using them for about 10 years.

Plus remember, what goes up must always come down, eventually. There are plenty of monsters that can do that for you. If not the monsters, old age will eventually get them.

I agree that its possible in real life, and thats why I put a way to advance stats into my houserules, but there is no mechanics in the PHB to raise a characters stats in C&C (unless I missed it)
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:58 pm

Yes... although there is no mechanics for raising stats by character level progression, one could easily be house-ruled or adapted.

However, having a houserule to counterbalance this due to age would be something I would consider if I implemented this. Older editions of AD&D had a mechanic like this, Physical stats generally went down but Mental stats generally went up.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:31 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Yes... although there is no mechanics for raising stats by character level progression, one could easily be house-ruled or adapted.

However, having a houserule to counterbalance this due to age would be something I would consider if I implemented this. Older editions of AD&D had a mechanic like this, Physical stats generally went down but Mental stats generally went up.

Moriarty the Red

I thought about ways to counter balance this, and age was one thing I considered, until it occurred to me I have never ran a campaign where the characters actually got old. I think the longest a camapign lasted, in character terms, was 12 years of their lifespan. Heck, in 3E the longest a campaign lasted (again in character time) was 19 months. That was with me as a player and we made well into Epic levels.

So the short of it is I realized using aging wasn't going to be any meaningful kind of counterbalance, so instead I just deal with it. The bad guys can do the same things the players can.

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