Magic Item Creation...Help!

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TheMetal1
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Magic Item Creation...Help!

Post by TheMetal1 »

Ok, so just for practice, I figured I'd give a shot at creating a wondrous item, but have ended up a bit confused. Yeah, I know I could just wing it, or choose another way of doing it. But I don't want to do that, I simply want to use the M&T rules for it (i'm using 2nd printing). Any help out there would be appreciated. Here is the story so far:

A 9th Level Wizard is commissioned to create a wondrous item that will surround a small keep (120' x 120') with an Alarm spell. (1st Level Druid Spell). He is intent on casting it on an ornate Candelabra. The master of the keep while touching the bottom of the Candelabra with a Copper piece can speak the command word and this creates, in modern terms, and electronic pass - in this case magical pass - that will allow the possessor of the magically imbued copper piece to not set off the Alarm. The master of the keep can negate all magic coppers at any time, and can turn the Alarm spell on or off at his leisure. The coppers if detect magic are used will radiate if they are active.

Ok. So that's the concept. I figure I've got a couple of ways of doing this. The first is by price.
STEP 1

The Candelabra is made of gold so, according to the M&T chart on page 96 that makes it worth about 1,000 gp.
STEP 2

Now as the requirements for creating this Magic Gold Candelabra are a having a laboratory like one makes potions in. Meaning the laboratory will cost 1,000 gps per spell level. As the spell Im using is a 1st Level Druid spell, Ill need to spend 1,000 gp.
STEP 3
Monsters & Treasure, 2nd Printing wrote:
Any special materials or unique items (such a special armor construction or weapon make) must be priced by the Castle Keeper.

As the Wizard doesn't have Alarm spell in his repertoire, he'll have to hire a Druid. I figure this falls under the realm of pricing needing to be done by the Castle Keeper. So finding a Druid and getting her to do it would be about 1,000 gp when it's all said and done a donation to the environmental care of the Druids wilderness area plus expenses.
Monsters & Treasure, 2nd Printing wrote:
The creators caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus or spell-like effect of the item created... (page 88)

So this hired Druid must be at least 3rd level (1st Level Spell x 3 = 3 or 3rd Level)
STEP 4

Now to actual cost of casting the Spell. For that we look at the "CALCULATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES" chart on page 89 of M&T. There I find two relevant entries:

1. Command word: Spell level x caster level x 750 gp

2. Use-activated: Spell level x caster level x 1,000 gp

Command Word: (Alarm -1st Lvl) x (3rd Level Druid) x 750gp = 6750 gp

Use-activated: (Alarm -1st Lvl) x (3rd Level Druid) x 1,000 gp = 3,000 gp
Monsters & Treasure, 2nd Printing wrote:
In the case of unique magical item creation, wizards, illusionists, clerics, and druids must acquire a ritual creation spell. The spell is knowable at the level the ability to create magic items becomes available. Wizards and illusionists must discover or purchase the spell, while clerics and druids must simply pray for it. This spell must be cast upon the item being created as the last act of the process and consumes 12 hours of casting time. (page 88)

I'm assuming for the Wizards & Illusionists, the "ritual creation spell' that M&T is referring to is the 5th Level Spell "Permanency." I have not been able to find anything for the Clerics & Druids though.
Question 1:Was this ever included? Sure I can make one up, but wanted to know the official Troll stance on this.
Question 2: Does the casting of Permanency cost anything? What I mean by that as it is a spell being cast on the item, like Alarm, does the wizard have to pay for it like I did for the command word and use activated. Right now the way I read it is no. The only cost for Permanency is the 12 hours casting time and in the spell description, the caster will lose 1 point of constitution for a month permanent if the caster fails his savings throw.
Question 3: As the Alarm Spell is for a 50 radius, how do I expand it for a 120 radius and link it to the Keep? Since the chart on page 89 doesnt cover these things, My initial guess would be to be to triple the cost of the Alarm spell (50 x 3 = 150).
Question 4: When creating a potion your required to have components at 200 gp per level and the laboratory cost. When making an item do you need to have components at 200 gp per level or simply the laboratory?
CASTING TIME
Monsters & Treasure, 2nd Printing wrote:
The ritual and spell casting times are high. The method is like that mentioned above except time is measured in weeks, not days. (page 88)

The actual above paragraph they are referring Ive included below:
Monsters & Treasure, 2nd Printing wrote:
The time required for this method is short. The material must be purchased and a ritual performed. The time required is one day plus a number of days equal to the level of the ability being imparted upon the item. (page 88)

Basically, Ive got a 1st Level Druid spell which can be cast by a 1st Level Druid but Im required to have a caster 3 x the actual level of the spell in this case a 3rd Level Druid. I assume based on the reading of this that the level of ability refers to a 1st Level Druid (not 3rd) so the actual time would be 1 week (as Im not using XPs) + 12 hours for the Permanency Spell.

Anyway, my final guess at what it should be is this:
Cost & Time Estimate

Gold for the Candelabra..1,000 gp

Laboratory...1,000 gp

Hireling Druid.1,000 gp

Command Word x 320,250 gp
Use-activated x 3.9,000 gp
Total Cost32,250 gp
Time Estimate.7.5 Days or 180 hours

Again, I welcome your feedback and insight. Yes I can simply do whatever I want as the CK and just wing it or give a good swag for the sake of the game. My whole point is Im looking for some official rules clarification in the process of Magic Item Creation. Thanks!
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Post by Go0gleplex »

Shots from the peanut gallery:

The ritual create magic spell you could make up, or use permanency as mentioned. Permanency will result in the caster losing a CON point for a month with a save required to prevent the loss from being permanent. (see page 95, 4th ed PHB)

For components, I would have them be at least priced as expert/master work creations.

You could, at further expense to the casting cost, have smaller candle sticks enchanted using a made up spell such as "Law of Contagion", in this instance not meaning disease but that like items behave in like manners...in this instance, the candle sticks/ candelabras all behave as focal points for the alarm spell cast. Removal of one of these focal points would create a gap in the "ring" and provide for further flavor in the construction of protections of the focal points.

Of course the added spells and components will engender further expense and require the magic abuser(s) to be at potentially higher levels, since a spell such as "Law of Contagion" should not be less than 7th or 8th level I would think.

The rest seems reasonable IMO.
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Post by Omote »

I always assumed the Ritual Creation spell was completely seperate from the Permanency spell. Also, Ritual Creation spell, as I understand it, is not needed for any items that currently exists in the M&T book. However, if the item to be created does not already exist, you would need the Ritual Creation spell, as you would for your case.

Perhaps Permanency needs to be added to the cost of your item in addition to what you have already indicated.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Your math is wrong on the Command Word cost calculation, Metal1.
Quote:
STEP 4

Now to actual cost of casting the Spell. For that we look at the "CALCULATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES" chart on page 89 of M&T. There I find two relevant entries:

1. Command word: Spell level x caster level x 750 gp

2. Use-activated: Spell level x caster level x 1,000 gp
Command Word: (Alarm -1st Lvl) x (3rd Level Druid) x 750gp = 6750 gp

Use-activated: (Alarm -1st Lvl) x (3rd Level Druid) x 1,000 gp = 3,000 gp

It should be:

Command Word: Spell Level (1) x Caster Level (3) x 750gp = 2250gp

That reduces the cost of the item significantly:

Cost & Time Estimate

Gold for the Candelabra..1,000 gp

Laboratory...1,000 gp

Hireling Druid.1,000 gp

Command Word x 36750 gp

Use-activated x 3.9,000 gp

Total Cost18,750 gp

Also, you may want to consider making it just use-activated, instead of both use-activated and command word. Maybe just lighting of the candelabra would make the item function. The only reason I suggest this is because there are items in M&T that seem much more powerful for a similar price (boots of teleportation, +4 armor, dwarven thrower, cloak of displacement, ting of telekinesis, helm of telepathy....just to name a few). Reducing it down to 9,750 gp (the price w/o the command word) puts it in, what I feel, is a better range for the type of item it is (with similarly priced items such as plate of etherealness, chime of opening, gauntlets of ogre power, ring of blinking, and the like).

Just my two cents.
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Post by Go0gleplex »

It would seem that the whole "Ritual Ceremony" spell or what would be a good inclusion to the CKG wherefore further explanation and clarification could occur....just to clear up lil muddles like this in the future.
I can see some sense in what Lord Dynel is suggesting about lighting the candelabra, but I think the real intent is to have something up at all times with, what essentially amount to, pass keys issued by the noble. In that light it seems the command word would be more appropriate and drop the use-activated. So the noble is under threat by an enemy, he activates the item giving pass keys to only those he trusts...each of whom become targets for the enemy should knowledge of the keys be divulged. (plot device!)

(Further thinking)

The ritual ceremony spell, lacking further edification, could add range to the item to that desired, keying to the area / keep dealing with the range issue neatly. Maybe add cost in components required for the ceremony or better, special components not readily available (quest hook!) and need to be obtained such as the eardrums of a dragon or some other creature with acute hearing / senses.

Like Lord Dynel says, your costs get lowered and you get a couple adventure hooks to play with in the bargain.
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Post by serleran »

I know you did not ask for alternate methods, but if I may present one:

For scrolls, Wizards and Illusionists must be at least 5th level, and they must acquire rare inks, either made themselves or bought from an Alchemist, having a cost equal to 1,000 GP per spell level, with Cantrips counting as 1/2 a level, or 500 GP. The character gains 100 EPP per spell level, with a Cantrip counting as 1/2, or 50 EPP. The process takes 1 day per spell level. The process is the same for Clerics and Druids, but, these classes must be at least 7th level. For potions, it depends on what type of potion-- if the spell mimics, or has a similar effect to, a Cleric or Druid spell, a Wizard of Illusionist can make the item, but must be at least 9th level; 7th level for is required for the making of items found on their own spell lists. Clerics and Druids cannot make any kind of potion except those which duplicate or mimic their own spells, and must be at least 9th level to do so. Ingredients for the potion must be found, and a recipe for it must be researched, using the method for spell research, detailed below. A full alchemical lab, also detailed in the following section, is required. The materials can be purchased, costing the same as for a scroll of the same spell or effect . EPP gained is the same, as well. A potion takes 1 month to manufacture, regardless of spell level. To make anything else, a spellcaster must be at least 11th level. The spell enchant, detailed below, must be researched and cannot be a spell automatically obtained; even Clerics and Druids must research the spell-- the only exception is a Cleric of a Deity of Magic, who gains the spell as a 6th level spell. A caster can give a +1 bonus per point of their spellcasting-dependent attribute modifier (Intelligence for Wizard, and Wisdom for Clerics, as examples), as a general bonus; if applying to a specific subset, such as "vs. Goblins" the maximum enchantment bonus can be doubled. Additional abilities are calculated as per potions with similar effects, but the cost is multiplied by 10; for an item with a limited number of permanent charges (that is to say, used and gone, without the capability of being recharged) cost double a potion of the same ability per permanent charge, which has a maximum capacity equal to the caster's level. Items with a set number of charges, but can be recharged cost quintuple the cost of a potion of the same effect, and provides the item with a number of charges equal to the caster's level doubled. An item of this nature takes 1 month per bonus; if the item has charges, 1 day per charge is needed; if the item has an additional, secondary effect that does not require charges, another month is required. The amount of gained EPP is equal to the enchantment bonus times 2000, with added EPP following the method for scroll or potion creation. In all cases, a spellcaster cannot make an item with a spell or effect above their own casting abilities. All costs and gains are cumulative. An item manufacturer can lower the effective level of a magic item, but not below the minimum needed to provide the effect; doing so does not reduce the cost of the item in any way. Also, after a character learns a recipe, that magic item can be made again, provided the character has the necessary components and the time-- the recipe does not need to be researched again.
New Ability

Spell Research : Any spellcaster may attempt to acquire a spell to add to his repertoire by research, experimentation, and luck. This process is long, and expensive, and often leads the character on difficult missions to retain rare ingredients to test the spell. A spell takes 1 month per spell level to research, and the researcher must expend a minimum of 50 Gold Pieces per week of research, reflecting various library fees, alchemical equipment, and services rendered. At the end of this period, a save is

made, modified by the level of the spell doubled (a Cantrip modifies by 1, and a 9th level spell modifies by 18 to determine the success of the research. Wizards and Illusionists must make an Intelligence save; Clerics and Druids must make a Wisdom save. Note: The researcher does not roll the save, and always assumes any research has been successful, regardless of actual outcome. Note: A spell researched does not need to come from the PHB, but in these cases, the CK must carefully check the spell in question to determine if the spell will be permitted or not. Successful use of this ability earns the character 100 XP (0 level spells are worth 50 XP.) Note: A character can only research a number of spells per spell level equal to their Intelligence modifier. Note: This ability is also used to research alchemical recipes used for the making of magic items, from scrolls to enchanted swords.
New Spell

Enchant (6th level): This spell allows the caster to prepare a nonmagical item for magical enchantment. The item must be one of superior craftsmanship, that is, have a gold piece cost equal to at least 15 times that of the same item at regular gold piece cost. Once cast, the item remains in a state of receptivity for a number of weeks equal to the casters level. If the caster wishes to give the item a +1 bonus, this spell must be cast again, with the first week, and then, subsequently on the same day, each following week, until the desired magical bonus is reached. If the caster desires to give the item charges, or an ability which is permanent, the same spell must be cast daily until the number of charges is reached; for an item with a permanent power, the same spell must be cast each day until the duration of the enchant ends. On the last day of this spells duration, permanency must be cast, or the item is rendered a temporary magic item, its powers lasting a number of days equal to the casters level. CT 8 hours; R touch; D 1 week / level (special); Sv --; SR --; Comp V, M.
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Post by TheMetal1 »

I appreciate all your input on this. All the additional plot ideas are great by the way.

Go0gleplex, +1 on including the 'Ritual Ceremony' spell in the CKG, along with an example of magic item creation. Kind of reverse engineer an item. Of course Steve is more than welcome to use this example. Yeah, you're pretty much spot on in regards to how it is intended to be used. The special components thing, is probably appropriate and can be solved simply saying in addition to the laboratory, in order to create an item you also need components equal to spell level at 200 gp per level just like potions require. Then it's up to the CK to determine what exactly are those components, and fully take advantage of the plot hook/quest.

Thanks for catching the math error, Lord Dynel. I realized what I did - I put the Alarm spell x 3 cost verses a single Alarm spell. The command word is important so I'll likely keep that in. Primarily for the Master of Keep to be able to activate it at will. Lighting it won't be a requirement for the power to be in effect. The lit Candelabra in the window will simply be a signal that something is up for those in know and to let them know the alarm is active. Something for an assassin or rogue to figure out code-wise in their surveillance.

Omote, the Permanency Im kind of in agreement with you there. As its not a wand effect with charges, so it needs to be maintained.

Serleran, thanks for posting some alternate methods. It's interesting to see how others do item creation in their games. The Enchant spell is pretty cool. I never really paid any attention to item creation until Pathfinder's RPG superstar contest, and figured since I play C&C I should know how to do it with that system.

Anyway, Im working on reverse-engineering a magic item from M&T, Ill post it here once I get it done and hopefully get your take on it. Thanks.
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Post by mgtremaine »

Just add another puzzle to this thread does anyone understand the this line in the chart.

Charges per day Divide by (5 charges per day)

I wanted to work out a NPC wizards staff and using

Magic Missles /2day

as a power. It seems to fall under

Single Lesser Ability 4,500gp

Use-activated [1x11x1,000] = 11,000

then what?

-Mike

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Post by Go0gleplex »

It sounds like you would figure the cost for the 50 charges, then divide that by, then it gets sort of vague. It might mean up to 5 times per day, but I can't see it being 5 x charges per day since that would mean the more charges you had, the less expensive the item would be.

A shot in the dark might be, 5-minus the charges per day. So if using 2 charges per day, you would divide the cost by 4.

As noted, this is all supposition but might give you a starting point.
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Post by mgtremaine »

Yes I wonder if that line has something left out of it that makes it hard to figure. The minus idea is possible that means full value at 5/day but then at 6 or more it makes no sense. [Negative numbers?]

If it was handed as fractions it would allow it to scale up

2/5 vs 6/5 but seems pretty small cost for something like that.

-Mike

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Post by Go0gleplex »

My math was wrong anyhow.

It should be more like 5 + (5-uses per day). If you have more than five uses, you may as well go with charges...or simply default to the divide by five. This would give you the range I was intending...division by 9 to 5.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Okay, here's what I think it might be.

I had to go with the basic assumption that C&C is a 3.5 deriative game.

Looking under the magic item creation rules in the 3.5 SRD, the entry for charges per day reads:
Special....................Base Price Adjustment

Charges per Day......Divide by (5 divided by Charges per day)

So, yeah, there's a small piece missing from the C&C rule.

In your case, mgtremaine, you divide 2 charges/day by 5. Then that is divided by the base amount you calculated up to that point.

So, if the item costs 10,000gp, you divide that by 5/2...or multiply 10,000 gp times 2/5ths. If you wanted the item to have 7 charges a day, you would take the 10,000gp base price and divide by 5/7...again the same as multiplying 10,000gp by 7/5ths.

Charges per day = Base Price / (5/X), where X equals the amount of charges per day you want the item to have.

-or-

Charges per day = Base Price x (X/5), where X equals the amount of charges per day you want the item to have.

Hope this helps!
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Post by Go0gleplex »

Makes sense to me.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Makes sense to me.

Yeah, I had to change the formula a little because I hate how math wording works (and that "Divide" in front of the "5 divided by charges per day" was bothering me). I skipped a step in my explanation, so I had to change it.
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Post by serleran »

Makes me even more glad I ignored all that d20 junk (most of which is beyond "broken.")
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Post by Go0gleplex »

I never really paid attention to the pricing to be honest. My players couldn't buy anything but scrolls or potions usually...and if they managed to find wands and such, the merchant bled them dry. If selling an item...they got chiseled on it, never getting what they might actually be worth. (yeah...I'm a stingy bastage with items that way).

They want the items...they gots to earn 'em honestly.
If I needed a different magic item, I simply did the stats for it and that was that.
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Post by serleran »

Well, for me, I just don't like how magic item creation has specific costs and values, making it more like a manufacturing factory than something unusual and mystical.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

serleran wrote:
Makes me even more glad I ignored all that d20 junk (most of which is beyond "broken.")

Bah. There's nothing broken about that.
Quote:
Well, for me, I just don't like how magic item creation has specific costs and values, making it more like a manufacturing factory than something unusual and mystical.

I agree with you. The problem is the years people asked for comprehensive magic item creation rules. All 3.x did was cater to these requests. I do miss the old ways, but at least it's cut and dried now, spelled out.
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Post by mgtremaine »

Ah thanks for the missing piece that makes more sense. Perhaps a little under valued since I'd much rather have a wand that does x 5/day then wand that does x with 50 charges. [If it can't be recharged.]

I don't mind have the creation rules spelled out so long as I make the players jump through the hops of item creation with rare and exotic components that often require side adventures to get. [Or are given as treasure in and adventure. You find a unworked mithril hooray! ]

We only played 3/3.5 for a few years via IRC so we never really got far enough to get to these rules. .

But in the olden days! We had hybrid OD&D/AD&D mash up where spell research and magic item creation was pretty standard and we had some rough pricing rules which were far higher then these. It works ok so long as the DM's are consistent and are able to see where a continued line of research is leading.

In any case I like applying the rules to my NPC generation as I populate towns and such this way I can get a feel for it and see if it is going to work ok when the characters are of level.

-Mike

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Post by TheMetal1 »

Heres my take on mgtremaine's magic item.
Superior Wand of Magic Missiles (Unlimited Charges, usable 2 x a Day)
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
All clerics, druids, wizards, and illusionists can create unusual magic items. Clerics and druids gain the ability to imbue at 12th level, while wizards and illusionists gain the ability at 9th level. (page 88)

Just as a reminder, there is a level requirement to make magic items, so this wizard NPC is either having another wizard doing it or he is at least 9th level.
Step 1: Laboratory Cost

As required for Magic Items:
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
Additionally, a lab must be procured as described in the potion creation section. The costof the laboratory reflects the level of the ability to be imbued.(page 88)

The potion lab info says this:
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
The cost of materials and goods for this laboratory,is 1,000 gp per level of the spell type being created. This is a cumulative cost. (page 88)

Magic Missile: 1st Level Spell x 1,000 gp = 1,000 gp

Sub-Total..1,000 gp
Step 2: Bonus spell Spell level squared x 1,000 gp:
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
The creators caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus or spell-like effect of the item created, unless the creator possesses special material like mithral.(page 88)

We'll keep it cost effective and not use mithral and figure the caster of Magic Missile is at least 3rd level (or 9th if he or she is doing it themselves).

Magic Missile: 1st Level Spell Squared x 1,000 gp = 1,000 gp

Sub-Total1,000 gp
Step 3: Use-activated - Spell level x caster level x 1,000 gp

Magic Missile: 1st Level - 3rd level x 1,000 gp = 3,000 gp

Sub-Total3,000 gp
Step 4: Single Lesser: Ability Base 4,500 gp

The only ability that could fit the bill was the Night Hags Improved magic missile which is
PHB, 3rd Printing wrote:
(deals 2d8 points of damage but otherwise functions as the standard magic missile spell) (3/day) (page 46)

Which in searching is not even a spell found in the spell list of the PHB, 3rd Printing. As it is only Magic Missile and 2 x Day, Id say it was indeed a Single Lesser Ability. The question is do you even need this included? I would say yes, according to this
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
The other method of creating magic items is by cost. This is an exceedingly, expensive route, but generally preferred to that described above. In this instance, reference the chart below for the cost to imbue the spell or spell-like abilities within an item. The number indicated is the base cost.(page 88)

The underlined piece I think is important. It might have been left out like Lord Dynel caught with Charges per day thing, but I didnt see it anywhere on the 3.5 SRD. I think regardless of what magic item your creating it is either a lesser or greater ability. Of course there is no delineation of saying what is lesser or greater other than the Castle Keeper.

Night Hags Magic Missile 2 x Day = 4,500.

Sub-Total.4,500 gp

The Cost So Far

Step 1.1,000 gp

Step 2.1,000 gp

Step 3.3,000 gp
Step 4.4,500 gp
Total Cost (so far)9,500 gp
Step 5: Charges per Day......Divide by (5 divided by Charges per day)

Divide by (5/2 charges per day = 2.5)

9,500 gp / 2.5 = 3,800 gp

As it is not stated, the assumption would be that this 3,800 gp would be added to the base cost so far of 9,500. I say that because if one goes with 5 charges a day the math works out in this example (5/5 = 1) / (9,500) = 9,500. Which would make sense something usable 5 x a day would cost more than something 2 x a day. Anyway when you add

Total Cost (so far)9,500 gp
Step 53,800 gp
Total (Almost).12,300 gp

So not too bad a price, comparable in cost to a Sword of Dancing (12,500 gp) or a Broom of Flying (12,700 gp)
And theres more!
A. Component Items
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
Any special materials or unique items (such a special armor construction or weapon make) must be priced by the Castle Keeper. (page 88)

With that in mind a good CK cant forget the cost of the component items Maybe Night Hag fingers or a maybe +1 Arrow, which of course will imply a quest or two as a plot hook.
B. More Missiles

Also realize that this particular wand is only going to be 1st Level Magic Missile meaning 1 missile even though its cast by a 3rd Level Wizard in the creation. If you wanted 2 missiles coming out each time, then it would be a 6th Level Wizard needing to cast it. At least thats how I read the Magic Missile Spell:
PHB, 3rd Printing wrote:
For every two levels of experience past first level, the caster gains an additional missile. The caster has two at 3rd level, three at 5th level, four at7th level, and so on. (page 88)
C. Permanency

Now if we add in the Permanency spell, the cost is significantly added to:

Step 1..Permanency: 5th Level Spell x 1,000 gp = 5,000 gp

Step 2..Permanency: 5th Level Spell x 1,000 gp = 5,000 gp

Step 3..Permanency: 5th Level Spell x 9 Level x 1,000 gp = 45,000 gp

Step 5. Total would 25,800

Total (Almost) would be 90,300, which leads me to believe in comparing with other magic items of similar effect this would be way outside the price range.
D. Ritual Creation Spell

Lastly, Then of course there is the Ritual Creation Spell. The question is do you include this 5th Level Wizard Spell (for wizards) in the cost? Im still up in the air on this, but as the Table on M&T (2nd Printing) page 89 Calculating Magic Item Gold Piece Values only has Bonus Spells an option and previous page says:
M&T, 2nd Printing wrote:
This spell must be cast upon the item being created as the last act of the process and consumes 12 hours of casting time. (page 88)

I dont think there is a cost in the base gp price for this. It is simply cast. Though acquiring the spell might cost you something. You could just use the Permanency spell as your Ritual Creation Spell base in the interim or use the one Serleran posted.
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Post by Treebore »

To find lesser versus greater you had to look at the actual magic item charts. The charts broke them down by lesser to greater. Newly created items had to be compared to the already existing items and placed as appropriately as possible.
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Post by TheMetal1 »

Looking at the Charts and Tables now, only things I see with any reference to lesser or greater are the Sentient Item Lesser Powers (page 90) and Sentient Item Greater Powers (page 91). Everything else doesn't show any difference other than cost at least in the Miscellaneous Magic charts are simply alphabetical order. The others just appear random, the Ring Chart for example has Animal Friendship at the top and then X-ray vision at the bottom, but Three wishes near to the middle.
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Post by mgtremaine »

I think the greater/lesser power is going to have to be "fuzzy" since it would be difficult to catalog everything possible. Maybe first-third as lesser and 4th+ as greater as far as spell level goes. THis at least jibs with the Monster Experience chart.

I am curious about "Bonus Spell" in the chart I'm not sure I would have applied that in the above example because I thought [perhaps incorrectly] that was like a extra spell slot ala Pearl of Power. Which if you check the price is inline with this.

Still it's obvious that the framework is there and each DM is going to have to twist it to their use a bit. [Hopefully the CKG will clear up what the intent was on some of this.]

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Post by TheMetal1 »

Hadn't thought about the 'Bonus Spell' as an extra spell slot myself. Could be. I just figured since the 'Enhancement bonus' was for each plus, the 'Bonus Spell' was for each spell.

The Monster Expereince Chart could work, of course it is not simply Lesser/Greater. Rather it's Special I (1-3), Special II (4-7) and Special III (8 and Up), but hey make it whatever you think.
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Post by TheMetal1 »

In the Keeper Advice Forum LordSeurek posted the following:
LordSeurek wrote:
Based on the cost route, someone wanna explain the specifics behind applying the table given on 89 of the M&T? I wanna create a haste bow. Functioning once per and one at 3 times a day.

Also, how do I know the difference between a lesser and greater single ability. Is it based on spell level, if so what is the cutoff between the two?

Thanks, L.S.

As I'm not a mod, I wasn't able to post, so I figured I'd give it a show answering here....

LordSeurek,

I just went through something similar. (See the start of this thread)

But to answer your situation specifically, here is my take on your Bow of Haste

1. You need to be an wizard or illusionist with Haste Spell at least 9th Level. (or hire one)

2. Then youll need to construct a laboratory costing based on 1,000 gp per level cumulative. So if youre only casting a 1st level spell, then its 1,000 gp. If your casting 2nd level, then its 3,000 gp (1st level: 1000 gp + 2nd level: 2,000 = 3,000 gp). In your case Haste Spell is 3rd level so it would be 6,000 gp.

3. Next youll have to determine the initial cost of the item, likely an expert weapon to start with so the Table 3.1 Expert Weapon (M&T, page 95) says its the Castle Keepers choice. Which Ill cover more under Components below, but for starters a Long Bow in the PHB has a cost of 75 gp.

4. Once youve got that sorted out, youll need to decide what you want to make. In your case you said you wanted to make 2 bows, one that can cast Haste 1 x a day and one that can caste Haste 3 x a day. For all that - you need to look at the table on page 89. Ive included that table here with my own interpretation of each Effects/Base Prices.
CALCULATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES
Effect 1..... Base Price
Enhancement bonus (each plus)..... Bonus squared x 1,000gp

This basically is what it says. If you want a weapon or item to be +1 then the cost would be 1squared (1x1) x 1,000 = 1,000. If you wanted a weapon to be +2 then the cost for this part would be 2 squared (or 2x2) x 1,000 = 4,000. If you wanted a +3 weapon, then your looking at 3 squared (or 3 x 3) x 1,000 = 9,000.
Bonus spell..... Spell level squared x 1,000 gp

I read this is as any spell that you want to add to a magic item is considered a bonus spell. So if you wanted a wand that used 'Create Food and Water' (a 3rd Level Cleric Spell) then the cost for having this spell imbued on the item would be 3 squared (or 3 x 3) x 1,000 = 9,000 gp. In the case of your Bow of Haste ( you want to use the 'Haste' spell (a 3rd Level Wizard Spell) the cost is the same: 3 squared (or 3 x3) x 1,000 gp = 9,000 gp
Resistance bonus ..... Bonus squared x 1,000 gp

For this I turn to the Ring of Energy Resistance (M&T, page 116). Here it references that , Each time the wearer would normally take damage, subtract the rings resistance value from the damage dealt. It goes on to say 10 points is considered minor, 20 points is consider major and 30 is considered greater. That being said, as eventually youll need to deal with Lesser and Greater Abilities, as part of the process, I would just take 1-15 points as lesser and 16-30 as greater.
Save/Ability bonus (limited)..... Bonus squared x 250 gp

This is basically giving one a bonus to a particular Ability or saving throw enhancing their chances at success. Say a +3 to save against Charm effects would be 3 squared (or 3 x3) x 250 = 2,250 gp. In the case of Ability, say the Barbarians Primal Fury which is +2 to damage dice rolls and +2 to Wisdom saving throws there are some challenges. As it also incurs a -2 to AC and a -2 to Intelligence checks. This brings out a point about cursed items and negatives. There is no discussion about creating them so I interpret that each ( + ) applies also to each ( -). So in the case of this Primal Fury ability would add up to 8 (both pluses and minus) total squared (or 8 x 8) x 250 gp = 16,000 gp
Single Lesser Ability..... Base 4,500 gp

Single Greater Ability..... Base 8,500 gp

Ive grouped these two together as my take on all this is that you need to start with a Greater or Lesser Ability. A few ideas have been thrown about for that. I just do a word search of the M&T book and see if any monster comes up with the ability Im looking for. A couple of good suggestions offered by some folks here on here on the forums are

1. To use the Monster Experience Point chart on 6, they break things down into Special 1, Special 2 and Special 3 corresponding to levels 1-3, 4-7, 8+ respectively. I would just say Level 5 as the separation point between Lesser and Greater,

2. Use the Sentient Item Great Powers (91) and the Sentient Item Lesser Powers (pg 90) as a guide.

3. Then of course is what I talked about in the resistance bonus as there is minor, major and greater at 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 points respectively, I would just take the 1-15 as Lesser and 16-30 as greater.
Attribute bonus..... Bonus squared x 1000 gp

This is treated just like an enhancement bonus or a resistance bonus. So a +2 dexterity added to a ring would be 2 squared (or 2 x 2) x 1,000 gp = 4,000
Spell resistance..... 10,000 gp per point

If you want Spell Resistance, like that of a Banshees which is 10, then youll need to spend: (10 points x 10,000 gp) = 100,000 gp
Single use, spell completion..... Spell level x caster level x 25 gp

Obviously a one shot item. But what is spell completion? The only place I found anything on spell completion was in the spell 'Trap Soul' in the PHB on page 101. It says the following:
Spell Completion: The spell can be completed by speaking its final word as if the caster were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows SR (if any) and an intelligence save to avoid the effect. If the creatures true name is spoken as well, any SR is ignored but the save CL increases by 2. If the save or SR is successful, the gem shatters.

Not really sure what this would be, but my take would be something similar to a scroll. Maybe a temporary effect. I'll use my own made up example:
Richards Pamphlet of Amazing Growth: Richard Smallton, a rather savey and zany halfling wizard came up with the idea of appealing to the sadness some Halflings feel at their stature. He printed several pamphlets with his exercise and stretching ideas to increase size at 50 to 100 gp a piece. Most of them were just junk, but a few he had imbued with the 'Alter Size' spell - a first level wizard spell, As he was 9th level the duration would last for 9 turns. So cost for one of the magic pamphlets was 1 x 9 x 25 gp= 225 gp. Add that to the 1,000 gp for his workshop. And the 1,000 gp for his the 1st Level Spell his total cost was 2,225 gp. He printed about 500 of the fake pamphlets, and made about 12 of them actually magically imbued. SInce he already ahd the workshop done, the cost was only 1,225 for each additional pamphlet. With the magic pamphlets, if one reads through to the end like a tome, the spell is casts and the reader is temporarily enlarged for 9 turns. The occassional increase in size bolstered the rumor and Richard made quite a bit of money on the pamphlets.
Single use, use-activated..... Spell level x caster level x 50 gp

This too is a one shot item, but requires you do something. I would think something like Cheese of Invisibility. Since 'Invisibility' is a Level 2 Wizard Spell. The cost would be 2 (for 2nd Level spell) x 9 (since the Wizard needs to be at least 9th Level) x 250 = 4,500 gp

Another example would be something like Dust of Disappearance which has a cost of 8,500 gps
50 charges, spell trigger..... Spell level x caster level x 250 gp

I read this as something like a wand or other item you want charges with. So if you wanted a Wand of Animate the Dead ( a 3rd Level Cleric spell) youd have to be a 12 level Cleric to create it so the cost would be for this imbued characteristic of 50 charges: 3 x 12 x 250 = 27,000 gp.

Spell Trigger though was another thing I couldn't really find anything on. Sure it's used throughout the PHB, but nothing specific is said about it. The way I read this section though is that it is 50 charges AND/OR Spell Trigger. It probably should have had it's own entry but that's for the Trolls to decide. So anyway, defining trigger adding 'something' that will cause the spell to cast when the trigger is 'tripped'. That 'something' may be a word, an action, a smell, something approaching a radius, etc. Really up to the player and CK. That's my take on it anyway, though in terms of just saying a word, that is different from the next one 'Command Word.'
Command word..... Spell level x caster level x 750 gp

You want a command word to activate the ability and make it come forth. Say you want to have the item cast the spell Protection from Law (1st level wizard spell ) cast as a 4th Level Wizard which gives you 12 rounds of protection. The cost would be 1 (for 1st Level Spell) x 4 (for 4th Level Wizard) x 750 gp = 3,000 gp.

Though this brings up another good point. Since you need to be a 9th level wizard to cast it, well everything is going to be at least a multiple of 9. So shouldn't it really be in the above case 1 (for 1st level spell) x 9 (for 9th level wizard) x 750 gp = 6,750 gp? I suppose a 9th level wizard could just get a 4th level wizard to cast it for her, but you'll still end up having to pay the wizard. But hey maybe a 9th level wizard would have some apprentice under them anyway so it's a freebee - other than the room and board. Cheaper for everyone all around anyway.
Use-activated..... Spell level x caster level x 1,000 gp

This would be for items that whenever you used it, the spell was in action. So creating a Sword of Undead Detection ( Detect Undead being a 1st level Cleric spell) would have to be created by a 12th Level cleric to the starting cost for this characteristic would be 1 x 12 x 1,000 = 12,000 gp
Charges per day..... Divide by (5 charges per day)

The base price should actually say ......Divide by (5 divided by Charges per day). (See the in this thread above for explantion) That being said, an example is in order, so if an item like a bow with the ability to cast the spell Haste 3 x a day, this is what you would need.

The cost is about 6,075 gp for the Bow & Laboratory, Add in the Haste Spell which 9,000 gp. Since Haste 3 x a day is a Greater Power add 8,500 gp. Total here is 23,575 gp. I would then divide the take 23,575 gp divided by (5 divided by 3 charge a day = 1.6) = 14,734 gp. Then I add the 14,734 gp to 23,575 gp for a total of 38,309 gp.
No space limitation..... Multiply entire cost and time by 2

As there is a Limit on Magic Items Worn shown in the M&T, having an item that doesnt take up one of these slots is the reason for incurring the extra cost. So while one should only be able to wear 1 amulet or brooch, one could take say an Amulet of Health +1 which normally costs 4,000 gp, but adding the No Space Limitation ability the cost of 4,000 gp would double or 4,000 gp x 2 = 8,000 gp.
Component..... Extra Cost

This is completely subjective (really all these rules are) to the CK, and as has been pointed out, a great opportunity for questing and adventuring. If someone in my campaign wanted to create this Bow of Haste (3 x a day), I would likely require it to be made of Darkwood (see M&T), which requires the players finding a tree or someone with some. then having it be crafted by the hands of a distinguished elf - which would be another adventure. All of this done before ever even getting to the point of adding the Haste Spell or creating a laboratory. Though likely the laboratory would be created while the PCs were off adventuring. The wow string would have to be made from the tendons of an ancient dragon. Buying those items may or may not be possible but shouldnt be easy. Further after it was created and now in use by the PCs, I would rule that it might enrage any dragon you encounter when it senses that the string is made of dragon tendons. But I wouldn't tell the PCs that, nor should you
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, now that Ive said all that about the rules. Let also add this... in the Society Chat last Friday, we talked about this whole topic of magic item creation a little and really it just came down to the idea that this is Castles & Crusades. You dont have to get wrapped around the axle with crunch. Just go with what feels right. So a quick look at the Magic Items in M&T shows this:
Quote:
Boots of Speed: The wearer of these boots may move as if a haste spell was cast upon him for up to 30 rounds each day. The duration of the effect does not need to take place over consecutive rounds. Cost is 12,000 gp. (M&T, page 105)

Ok, cool. Your Bow of Haste which can cast the 'Haste' spell 3 x a day at will has a cost of 12,000 gps. Each time the user casts 'Haste' they can use the the ability for up to 10 rounds (which is equal to the 30 rounds used in Boots of Speed). Done.

My math could be off or I might be reading something wrong, so if anyone is interested in commenting on the Bow of Haste that is almost 50,000 gp (with no command word or use activated in, which I think there should be, but the cost was already too excessive) let me know.

Also, I would be interested in hearing the Trolls take on cursed items and their creation - are the ( - ) additions used like the ( + )'s or something different? Also I would like to hear their take on Spell Completion, Spell Trigger and Use Activated vs. Single Use Activated.
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Awesome post TheMetal1. A-W-E-S-O-M-E ! ! !

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Post by LordSeurek »

Many thanks Metal1 for the post and info!

much appreciated!

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Post by LordSeurek »

Special Item: Major Antimagic Ring (Its not in any book I know nor is the spell) Its a quest item for a lich in my Forgotten Realms game.

The spell mimicking is like Globe of Invulnerability. I have set it as a 9th level spell that protects from all spell, spell-like abilities etc at 6th level and lower for a duration of 1 rnd/lvl.

Here is the cost I have come up with:

Command Word: Spell X Caster Level X 750 gp

9th level spell X Caster Level 17 X 750 = 114750 gp

Lab Cost = 9000 gp

Basic Ring Cost = 10000 (Platnium)

Total = 114750 + 9000 + 10000 = 133750 gp

Am I missing anything? I saw TheMetal1's note about the cost including the level of the spell squared x 1000, which would equal 81,000 gp in this case. DO I have to add that on as well or is it included in the COMMAND WORD cost?

Thx, Rob
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Post by TheMetal1 »

LordSeurek,

Interesting concept for an item, but perhaps a bit underpriced! I would add in the 81,000 gp to your cost as that command word delineates it from other types use activated, charges, etc and that makes it more in line with the more powerful items in the M&T, but your take is still I think pretty good, so if it works for you go with it. For what its worth I went ahead and did my take on the construction of your Major Ant-Magic Ring so here it is:

1. Lab cost. It is cumulative per level. So that means, a first level spell your at 1,000 gp. Done deal. If you want a 3rd level spell, well then its 1,000 gp for 1st level; 2,000 gp for 2nd level; and 3,000 gp for 3rd level making the grand total for the lab 6,000 gp. Since youre wanting to cast a 6th level spell Globe of Invulnerability then that adds15,000gp (4,000 for 4th; 5,000 for 5th; and 6,000 gp for 6th) + the 6,000 gps to cover 1st thru 3rd. Making the cost 21,000 gps just for the lab alone.

2. Ok, now that youve gotten the lab costs out of the way, youve stated the ring itself will be a platinum ring worth 10,000 gps. Only thing I would add would be the small, clear 1gp bead or sphere and a tiny glass sphere (2sp) to cast spell as stated for the Globe of Invulnerability. A minor point, to be sure, but can be a costly mistake for the PCs if they ignore it and have to start over.

Running cost total: 31,001 GP and 2 SP.

3. Bonus spell..... Spell level squared x 1,000 gp. Well since the spell your casting is 6th level, then it is 6 x 6 so that makes it 36,000 gps.

Running cost total: 68,001 GP and 2 SP.

4. Single Greater Ability..... Base 8,500 gp. This I would add in because I think it is kind of a base cost thing. Youre wanting a ring with the single greater ability which is to be able to on command cast Globe of Invulnerability. (I know you said you wanted it to cover more spell levels than this levels 5 and 6, but Ill get to that at the end. For the moment bear with me)

Running cost total: 76,501 GP and 2 SP

5. Command word..... Spell level x caster level x 750 gp. Here youve got a 6th level spell Globe of Invulnerability x a 9th Level Wizard Caster x 750 gps. So that comes out at 40,500 gps.

Running cost total: 117,001 GP and 2 SP

6. Since nothing exists in terms of rules to cover the invulnerable to spells 5 Level and above that Im aware of, there are a couple of ways to handle it: Id likely handle the development this way.

a. Bonus spell..... Spell level squared x 1,000 gp. Id say to cover 5th level spells youd need to add an addition 25,000 gps and for 6th level youll need to add an additional 36,000 gps. Together that is another 61,000 gps.

b. Since adding these spell levels will actually bump up the effectiveness of the Globe of Invulnerability effect from spell levels 0 through 4 to spell levels 0 through 6, I would consider each spell level bump a Single Greater Ability. So that would 8,500 for each meaning an additional 17,000 gps.

So for both a and b you have 78,000 gps

Running Total is 195,001 GP and 2 SP (this also would be the final cost if you went this route)

7. The other way to deal with the issue of getting 5th & 6th Level covered for the Ring is to use a Wish Spell to increase the effectiveness of the Globe of Invulnerability spell up to 6th Level. This eliminates the need to create a new spell and all that, making it rather simple, but much more expensive.

Bonus spell..... Spell level squared x 1,000 gp.

Wish9th level squared = 81 x 1,000 gp = 81,000 GPs.

Running Total is 198,001 GP and 2 SP

The two options are pretty much the same cost-wise. If it were me, Id go with the wish spell route as it is less messy.

Lastly that 9th level wizard needs to acquire (discover, purchase or pray for it) the Ritual Creation Spell Its not listed anywhere in the Players Handbook, but only mentioned in the Monsters & Treasure. Here is the quote on it from M&T (3rd printing, page 88):
Quote:
In the case of unique magical item creation, wizards, illusionists, clerics, and druids must acquire a ritual creation spell. The spell is knowable at the level the ability to create magic items becomes available. Wizards and illusionists must discover or purchase the spell, while clerics and druids must simply pray for it. This spell must be cast upon the item being created as the last act of the process and consumes 12 hours of casting time.

Now that alone can be an adventure and very costly in and of itself at least for a wizard or illusionist. How you handle that one is up to you.

I will point out though that looking at the power of this Item, it is very likely I would consider this to be an artifact because any time you speak the command word a Globe of Invulnerability with extra power to disperse 5th and 6th level spells will appear for 9 rounds. In effect one could almost endlessly cast it (though Id through in at least 1 round of down time). An artifact is pretty much priceless, but since you want to put a price on it, let us look at the most expensive M&T magic items:

Staff of Power costs 71,000 GP

Ring of 3 Wishes is 114,000 GP,

Ring of Arch Wizardry is a 100,000 GP.

If we look simply at the Rings of Wizardry then here is the breakdown on cost.

20,000gp and 1st level spells for a Minor Ring of Wizardry

40,000gp and 2nd level spells for a Ring of Wizardry

70,000gp and 3rd level spells for a Major Ring of Wizardry

100,000gp and 4th level spells for a Ring of Arch-Wizardry.

If you look at the cost increase between the rings it is 20,000 gps and then 30,000 gps. If I wanted a ring of Master-Arch Wizardry covering 5th Level spells or a Super-Arch Wizardry covering 6th Level spells, then Id make it a 40,000 gp in increase for both 5th and 6th to keep the theme going, with a 140,000 gp and 180,000 gp. Respectively. I put this in here so you could see a cost comparison with your Major Ring of Anti-magic at 198,001 GP and 2 SP isnt too far off something giving increasing spell levels.

Hope this helps. Enjoy!
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