Help me get rid of spell memorization

[thoth93]

I'm going to run a game of C&C for some visiting friends (old high school and college chums) in a few weeks. Skimming the rules, I'm reminded of how much I hate spell memorization.

Using C&C's standard of eight hours of sleep (required) and 15 minutes per spell ....

Well, it's a wonder high-level wizards ever even leave the house.

Merzak the Malignant: "Aha! I have memorized all my mighty magicks, and now, I shall go terrorize the countryside!"

Slovenly Servitor: "Er ... Umm, master? I hate to say this, but it's time for bed."

Merzak: "Blast! And I had such deliciously evil plans. Ah, well. Fix me a sandwich, minion, and a nightcap."

So I'm thinking:

Mage players have a list of spells they know. They can learn more spells from scrolls and ancient texts. This gives them the ability to cast that spell. But once you know it, you know it.

Clerics call on their gods for the miracle they need in heat of the moment. No advance spell prep for them. I haven't completely worked out whether they only know a limted number of spells or can just "ask" for anything of appropriate level.

You can cast the number of spells indicated for your class and level (with bonuses) per day. You can cast any spell you know without having to pre-memorize it or pray in advance for it.

So say your wizard gets four zero-level spells, and three first-level spells. (Intelligence bonus.) You know three spells of each level.

So say you know magic missile, shocking grasp and sleep. You can cast three magic missiles, or two magic missiles and shocking grasp, one of each, etc.

I don't know why this wouldn't work, as long as it was consistent for NPCs and PCs. It would give a great deal of flexibility and allow wizards to better use their spells, rather than playing the classic "guess which spells I'll need today" game.

You need eight hours of rest to refresh your spell pool. There's no prorated spell gain, so it's eight hours or nothing. To do it differently seems to me to be really micromanaging things.

I've thought of maybe houseruling something that would allow you to over-extend yourself and cast an extra spell or two per day if it was an emergency situation. Maybe something like a -1 penalty to all ability scores per spell level cast for the first spell, doubling for the next. Each -1 penalty means an extra hour of bed rest.

So if you cast an extra first level spell, you're a -1 to all abilities and then need an extra hour of sleep to recover. Cast two extra first level spells and you're at -3 and need three extra hours of rest. Cast three, and you're at a whopping -6.

You could mix and match. So using our -1 for a first level spell, if you cast a third-level spell afterward, you'd be at -7. This is all designed to simulate the fatigue of overextending yourself magically.

No ability score could be reduced to less than 1, but after a while (and especially if you're casting a couple of fairly high level spells) your wizard would pretty much be useless until he or she rested.

Obviously, this is a "last ditch" sort of thing and would be severely discouraged. I've even contemplated working out some percentage chance or other mechanic that could result in the wizard losing a point of constituion permanently if he/she overextends themselves too much. I haven't taken that much beyond the conceptual stage.

It does change the way magic works, but I think it works better for my purposes. What do you guys think? Any particular reason the basic solution wouldn't work? I'm not totally married to the "overextension" idea.

Brian

[moriarty777]

Welcome to the Crusade!

You know, I've never quite paid attention to that rule but I believe it harkens back to 1st and 2nd Editions of AD&D.

This is one thing where D&D 3.x is actually more practical (and simple for a change) and pretty much what I follow.

A Wizard needs eight hours of uninterupted rest. Any significant interruption during this time adds another hour to this number. Once done, in order to prepare *ALL* the spells for the day, one hour of study is required.

That's it.

I do pretty much the same thing with clerics but instead of study, the cleric does prayers and rites to honor their patron deity.

However, C&C is the perfect system to tweak and houserule. I'm sure other people on the boards also have their take.

Moriarty the Red.
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[Treebore]

It can't hurt to try it. Especially on what sounds like a one shot. Personally I would call it good with saying they know all their spells and require just 8 hours of sleep.

After trying that out, then I would worry about tweaking it more. Baby steps are best. Serleran also posted a way to custom cast spells which looks to be pulled from Rolemaster/HARP.

Anyways, if its a one shot playtest it all the way. If it is something your hoping to turn into a regular thing make it clear to them your playtesting, so nothing is definite.

Welcome ot the boards, and the Crusade.

[Veritas]

My DM for AD&D years ago came up with a system for clerics to call upon their god(s) for the spells they need rather than "memorizing" them. He brought into play the somewhat fickle nature of the gods by introducing a random table the cleric would roll on each time he prayed for a spell.

It was something like this:

[quote]Code:


"Some aspect of the spell" are all the variables of the spell: range, area of effect, duration, damage, healing, whatever... find out how many there are for the spell and roll randomly to determine which aspect has the bonus or penalty. The penalty for retries on 11 or 12 last until the end of that fight scene. The CK may assign a bonus or penalty based on the spell and it's "appropriateness". If the deity would be very pleased by a particular casting, then a bonus, or displeased, a penalty. The table more reflects the idea that at some point, you might be catching the deity in the bath, or on the phone, or perhaps watching your character intently, thus a waning or waxing of the deity's (or its minions') attention. We had fun with it.
As for Wizards and Illusionists, you could just handle it the simple way you said and say that their spells in their spellbook are what they know, and they can just case any spell from their book at any time, up to their limit for the day. They just need to sleep for the full 8 hours. If you want it to be a bit more complicated, you could say that for every hour less, they just don't gain back their higher level spells (work off a percentage of how much sleep they missed).

[Metathiax]

Here's some of my house rules on spell memorization and casting :

Spellcasters do not lose spells after casting them. They are still retained in their memory. With rest, they can cast the same spells they had memorized the previous day. They do not have to memorize spells every day. However, if they want to switch spells out, they still have to take the standard amount of time to prepare the spells the usual way. A spellcaster can cast spells he has memorized any number of times up their daily maximum per spell LVL (multiple memorizations of the same spell are now unnecessary).

It does not completely remove the preparation time from the process but it's not as much of a hassle than with the original rules.
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[csperkins1970]

I like that house rule a lot. I might use it... yoink!

[Veritas]

Metathiax wrote:
Here's some of my house rules on spell memorization and casting :

*snip*

I'm going to use that kind of thing in my next campaign (regardless of system), where a wizard can memorize up to his full alotment, then use that list as a spontaneous caster list, casting any of his memorized spells at anytime he wants, up to his level limits.

[magehammer]

I just allow the party to have 10 hours uninterrupted rest with appropriate meals and study, relaxation, praying, etc. That works just fine for my group.
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[gideon_thorne]

Well.. Simplest method that doesn't require a lot of rules is this. Simply state that spells are no longer required to be memorized.

But if one wishes to cast the same spell again the same day it works thus. One has a pool of spell power that is the characters con score plus their level. Any additional spells cast cost their level. 1st is one point 9th is 9 points, ect.

Once the 'pool' goes down below zero, get a shovel to dig a hole to put the spell casting character in.
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Peter Bradley

[moriarty777]

Metathiax wrote:
Here's some of my house rules on spell memorization and casting :

Spellcasters do not lose spells after casting them. They are still retained in their memory. With rest, they can cast the same spells they had memorized the previous day. They do not have to memorize spells every day. However, if they want to switch spells out, they still have to take the standard amount of time to prepare the spells the usual way. A spellcaster can cast spells he has memorized any number of times up their daily maximum per spell LVL (multiple memorizations of the same spell are now unnecessary).

It does not completely remove the preparation time from the process but it's not as much of a hassle than with the original rules.

Hmm... that's pretty freakin good. Simple... sweat... and so easy to implement.

Thanks for this!

Moriarty the Red
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[Metathiax]

Quote:
Thanks for this!

My pleasure!
I didn't like the whole multiple memorization of a single spell concept. Having clerics use up most of their spell slots to get cure spells or damage spells for wizards makes them utility-belt-like especially at lower levels. I prefer that they memorize cure light wounds or fireball just once and select other more varied spells instead. Forgetting spells that have been cast also breaks the epic feel of spellcasters by interrupting the adventure to refill on spells. They can now journey off with a judicious spell selection without bothering with spell preparation all the time especially at higher levels.
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[Emryys]

moriarty777 wrote:
Simple... sweat... and so easy to implement

Exactly!
Another convert...
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[babbage]

Metathiax wrote:
Here's some of my house rules on spell memorization and casting :

Spellcasters do not lose spells after casting them. They are still retained in their memory. With rest, they can cast the same spells they had memorized the previous day. They do not have to memorize spells every day. However, if they want to switch spells out, they still have to take the standard amount of time to prepare the spells the usual way. A spellcaster can cast spells he has memorized any number of times up their daily maximum per spell LVL (multiple memorizations of the same spell are now unnecessary).

It does not completely remove the preparation time from the process but it's not as much of a hassle than with the original rules.

I have adopted this house rule as we generally play low level, which is incredibly frustrating for spell casters. Yes, I know that these pay off at high level but we usually retire by then and start again.

All the players agreed this was a good model to use. Preparation is still required, choices still need to be made, but you aren't stifled by the fact that you only have one fireball, or have already cast cure light wounds.

Very good. Thanks. 8)
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[phadeout]

I just have to say...

Metathiax, this should have been an official C&C rule...

[irda ranger]

I like Metathiex's system. It is similar to Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, which is one of my favorite magic systems. I use pretty much that exact system for Clerics and Druids.

I have taken another route for Wizards, however, as a pet project. My system can be summarized as follows:

0. You can cast any spell you know, at any time, as often as you like.

1. The spellbook must be studied at least 1 hr /day, like D&D 3.x.

2. I am strictly enforcing page limits, encumbrance, and book damage.

3. I am re-writing all spells, as needed, to be 'balanced' against other classes on a "per round" basis.

My thought is: Fighters and Rangers can fight all day (we don't have X-rounds-to-fatigue rules), and Rogues can "Listen" and "Move Silently" until the cows come home; so the limiting factor to adventuring is always the spellcaster. "Sorry, I'm out of Fireballs. We need to go back to the Inn." This is annoying.

Instead, I'd rather that spells could be cast an 'unlimited' number of times. So far I have been able to accomplish this fairly by modifying the spells as we go. Magic Missile requires an attack roll. Floating Disc disappears the moment you stop concentrating on it (allowing use of wands, but disallowing scrolls and spellcasting), which can be problematic if you suffer HP damage. Light has a material ingredient of 1 silver piece (10x the price of torch). Etc. You see where I'm going with this.

Frankly I'm not sure what I'll do once we get into Fireball territory. Higher level spells really are balanced against the idea of "don't waste them, you've only got two." I could start imposing high material ingredient costs (20 gp rubies for Fireball, etc.), which can be confiscated, lost, used up, not available at the local market, etc. - but that's a trick that gets old if used too often.

Alternatively I'm considering a system where spells can only be cast from scrolls that are cheap to prepare, but do require some time and a library. That way you're limited per adventure and prep time, similar to rations and ammo.

Luckily my players consider this all a fun experiment.
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[phadeout]

Irda Ranger,

It's a nice idea, but brings too much of a "Diablo" feel to the spell caster for me. You can just keep casting spells, just like the warrior can keep swinging. It's a different feel and a different concept on what a Wizard is for sure.

You'd almost have to nerf all the high level spells, and make low level spells the only thing you can cast (though a lot of low-level spells). This can be accomplished through your own spell point system, one where the cost for spells in spell points goes down as you level up, and the cost can actually reach Zero for the lower level spells so you can cast at will. Just a thought...

[irda ranger]

phadeout wrote:
Irda Ranger,

It's a nice idea, but brings too much of a "Diablo" feel to the spell caster for me. You can just keep casting spells, just like the warrior can keep swinging. It's a different feel and a different concept on what a Wizard is for sure.

You'd almost have to nerf all the high level spells, and make low level spells the only thing you can cast (though a lot of low-level spells). This can be accomplished through your own spell point system, one where the cost for spells in spell points goes down as you level up, and the cost can actually reach Zero for the lower level spells so you can cast at will. Just a thought...

Yeah, my concerns about nerfing high level spells is something that concerns me. That's why I'm pretty sure this is not a "20 levels" solution. It's been fun at low levels though.

Part of what I'm trying to accomplish, however, is playful magic, where wizards can send sparks into the air to amuse children or heat their dinner with a spell, all while not concerned that somehow this lessens their ability to fight goblins and orcs should the occasion arise.

Eh, maybe I should just make cantrips free and go with Metathiex' system otherwise.
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[phadeout]

Irda,

Why not make the number of 0th-level spells that you can cast be as per the PHB plus the level of the caster.

[gideon_thorne]

irda ranger wrote:
Part of what I'm trying to accomplish, however, is playful magic, where wizards can send sparks into the air to amuse children or heat their dinner with a spell, all while not concerned that somehow this lessens their ability to fight goblins and orcs should the occasion arise.

Indeed. To me things like that ought to not 'cost' a mage power. Its on the order of simple parlor tricks that any apprentice can do without effort.
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Peter Bradley

[Metathiax]

Quote:
I just have to say...

Metathiax, this should have been an official C&C rule...

Thanks, but I must admit that my house rule did not get to face actual playtesting at high levels. Maybe I'll find out that there was some wisdom with the original rule if I encounter unforeseen balance issues later on... In the meantime, it obviously gets my players' seal of approval.

Quote:
3. I am re-writing all spells, as needed, to be 'balanced' against other classes on a "per round" basis.

Wow! You are one courageous CK!

Quote:
maybe I should just make cantrips free

Quote:
Why not make the number of 0th-level spells that you can cast be as per the PHB plus the level of the caster.

In my opinion, these are both sound options. You could also allow spellcasters to select a cantrip as an innate spell at given levels.
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[phadeout]

Metathiax wrote:
You could also allow spellcasters to select a cantrip as an innate spell at given levels.

That's a good idea, say each time they learn to cast a new level of spell (1 innate cantrip at 1st level, 2 when they can cast 2nd level spells, 3 when they can cast 3rd level spells, maxing out at 9 when they can cast 9th level spells).