Troll Lord Games

Another thing I really don't like from the "classic" era is random ability scores.

I'm inclined to just steal from True 20 and let players buy attributes. Start with six points to buy attributes in +1 increments (because it's really the attribute bonus or penalty that matters, not the ability score).

Want more points? Take penalties. So you get something like this loadout:

S: +3

I: -1

W: +0

D: +2

Con: +2

Cha: +0

Hmm. Maybe six points is too much for a C&C character, since the max is generally +3. Maybe four points would be better.

I'm sure people have made point-buy sytems galore. Anyone have ideas?

Brian

Personally, I detest point buy systems. They do offer some balance to all characters with regards to stats, but I find it very inorganic... like "building" a character. I find it much more enjoyable to roll stats and tailor the character based on those stats, rather than shuffling around points to find the best combination. Besides, I don't subscribe to the idea that all characters are created from equal stuff. Some are simply better off than others, overall. The joy (for me) is roleplaying that, even if I'm roleplaying the character with the low stats.

Veritas speaks the truth. (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Anyway, don't like point-buy systems, either, but if you want to use one, why not borrow the point-buy system from d20? If you want to only record the bonus, I guess you could -- just consider the 3-18 number part of the "point buy cost formula."

Thoth, I think that'd probably work ok. Depending on how "heroic" you want your characters to be, 4 to 6 points seems reasonable.

Some folks might suggest a cap on how far you can reduce a character's stat, but as I see it if it's reduced too far it becomes a self-correcting problem. Given that saving throws are attribute and prime based.

The advantage to using the d20 approach, is because the actual number does matter in C&C. 3.x focuses on the attribute bonus/penalty from my experience with it. So True 20 can boil it down like it has, and it doesn't really matter.

Since C&C is using a Target Number, the actual stat number does make a difference. The d20 method of point buy (found in the DMG as I recall) works a bit bettter because of that.

Still you could use your system, just have a random roll of high/low for the 2 point stat and d6 for the 3 point stats.

Personally, I detest random rolling only for character generation. I don't think it causes me to play a character better or that I wouldn't have played otherwise... just makes me play a character I don't like and get killed as soon as possible. Different folks like different things though, and since I can do a point-buy easy enough for C&C, it's not a deal breaker for me.

I haven't had my players create their characters for our first game yet, and I have been "collecting" verious character creation methods from off of the net and in my old AD&D 2nd edition Player's Handbook. I've got the 3.0 core books so I'll have to check out the aforementioned points method in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Personally, I never really dug the whole "random roll" method. Some say that it's more "real" and allows fate to take part, but I disagree. If a character wants to be a fighter, then they may "work out" or do some strength training in their early years to reach their goals. So allocating a little extra to their Strength while neglecting their Charisma makes sense. Just accepting the rolls as they happen is akin (to me anyway) to just showing up on a university's steps and just randomly choosing your major. While a music major may not be a master musician yet, they have trained somewhat and are a little better at it than the english majors. Of course, it all depends on what you want.

I roll, but arrange to taste. That way you get the randomness, but you also can nudge the character in the direction you have in mind.

Also, don't forget that, in C&C, assignment of Primes makes a huge difference. It goes a long way towards modelling that "focuses and practices to get better" thing.

I've never been a big fan of point buy, though my TIME LORD RPG supplement that I have on the net (link available through my signature) does use point buy.

I prefer the randomness of dice, and my house rules reflect this.
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There is a slight problem with using simple modifiers as the stat, unless you alter every spell, item, or effect that modifies said attributes to affect modifiers instead, itself determines the modifier. For example, the "enhance attribute" spell gives a bonus to an attribute score. Sometimes, this bonus is not enough to move the score into the next higher modifier bonus, but, with the modifier-only system, it would require it to do so, or the spell would be pointless. Also, attribute loss would be much more damaging.

That said, if such a thing were to be done, I would suggest a +3 be spread. A PC can lower a score for a negative to gain a positive, but no more than 5 points can be spent in any case. So, for example, a character could have 2 -1s a +1, and 2 +2s.

The other attribute buy system I would suggest, personally, would be to use something like 66 points, each counting as one for the attribute score.

I make my players roll 4d6 minus to lowest 6 times and then arrange to taste. I also allow them to reroll if the sum of all their attribute modifiers is less than +1. This system does not create hopeless or overpowered characters and is straightforward enough.

I do like point-buy systems for other RPG genres such as super-heroes but not for fantasy RPGs since they are strongly archetype-driven and tend to produce cloned characters (all fighters get 18 STR or so, all wizards get 18 INT or so, etc.).
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My House Rules v8

I hate point buy and purely random rolling. Its why I do 4d6, re-roll ALL 1's and 2's, arrange as desired. That way the lowest stat I will see is 9, most wil be in the 14 to 16 range with some 17 and 18's.

That way everyone has "good" stats, no one ever gets a crappy set of stats, and the character is tough enough to last awhile.

Best of all things.

Besides, I don't understand everyones hang up with stats. This is a imaginary game. No one should give a crap if the player just assigns all 18's. Which, BTW, is an optional rule in my "house", and only one player did it, once, in the 10 years or so that I have been offering it.

When someone sits down to play a character at my table, stats will make them happy. If that means you want to play a character with straight 3d6 rolled and taken in order, then that is what you can do. Just don't expect everyone else to do it.

No matter what the character stats are it isn't going to break my game, or make it "hard" for me to run challenging adventures.

Just one note to those very few who like to play characters with low stats, you play in my game and die quick, just realize the rule "survival of the fittest" applies strongly to adventurers.

Which is why I encourage and accept high stats. Characters with average stats will have a hard time surviving for long, unless I fudge in their favor. I don't like doing that. So if your character has reached 7th level and still hasn't died, its alive because it has been truly lucky.

Its the same with the higher stat characters, but the higher stats definitely helped make it easier for them to be "lucky" enough.

Anyone who has done any kind of Probability and Statistics type analysis knows this.

I honestly do not recall who I, um, borrowed the following from. But you can be certain it was from here (well, the old boards) or from DF. And if the originator speaks up, I'll happily drink a pint in his or her name. Two, if necessary. I'd do three, but I'm at work...

In any case, this is what I'm using...

Quote:
Note: The values associated with these two methods are compatible. Therefore, it's perfectly permissible just to choose the pre-defined stat values for the specified power level if the game in question is using the point buy stat values option.
Pre-defined Stat Values

A power level is determined by the CK and players then assign the values associated with that level to their stats in any order desired.
Power levels and stat values:

High (18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10)

Med (17, 15, 13, 13, 11, 9)

Low (16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 8 )
Point Buy Stat Values

A power level is determined by the CK and players receive a certain number of points with which to "buy" their stat values.
Power levels and stat points:

High (36 points)

Medium (25 points)

Low (18 points)

Two rules regarding ability score purchasing:

No more than two (2) stats may have the same value prior to any racial mods.

Negative point values represent a rebate of points received for selecting a low score.
Stat Value Point Cost

6 -6

7 -4

8 -3

9 -1

10 0

11 1

12 3

13 4

14 6

15 7

16 9

17 10

18 12

My original player went for the predefined values (at high power level - my decision there). I used the medium power level predefined for the two main NPCs. My second player (the session with him has not yet been written up and posted to the campaign journal, but it's on its way) passed on the pregens, rolled 4d6 drop low 6 times and came up with a load of stink.

So I offered him one more chance: use the point buy system or roll once more, but rolling meant he would be stuck with whatever came up. He chose to roll. At that point Healfdane's player pounded his fists on the table, stood up and shouted "I LIKE THIS GUY!" and then sat down to watch the drama unfold.

The new guy came up with a delightfully random set of stats (16, 16, 15, 13, 5, 9), which lead to an utterly uncharismatic dwarf known as Grunty - an invaluable addition to the party. And the best part is that both players are happy with their characters. Yay C&C!

Anyway, all this is to make the point system above available but to chime in with support for Treebore on the "Whatever makes the players happy" concept.

I'm pretty much a heretic in these parts, since I thought 3.x was a humongous improvement to the previous editions of D&D, and I really have to struggle against the nostalgia inherent in C&C.

So you probably won't be too suprised to hear that I use the 3.x point buy system. I am very much not a fan of random character gen. For my group and me, something as important as character stats (which shape your character for his entire career) should not be left to chance.

In my current Age of Worms game, which got off to a terrific start just this last Saturday, we are using 30 pt buy with the following costs.

[quote]Code:


You can see how the party turned out on our wiki...
http://www.criminy.net/aowwiki/pmwiki.p ... Characters

I have thought about using a point buy system (based on the 3E system), but the rolling of stats has always been a lot of the fun of creating a character. I use 2d6+6 7 times (drop the lowest score), so hopeless characters are not a problem, and most are above average.
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Point buy fosters the annoying politically correct "everyone is equal" crap. Everyone is not equal, otherwise I'd go kick Tiger Wood's ass at around of golf, dunk on Michael Jordan, and strike out 20 on opening day of baseball season. I detest point buy. Every point buy character I have ever seen has the exact same stats, just in a different order. Switch int and str if you play a fighter instead of a mage this time around, str for dex next time you play a thief, etc.
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thoth93 wrote:
Another thing I really don't like from the "classic" era is random ability scores.

I'm inclined to just steal from True 20 and let players buy attributes. Start with six points to buy attributes in +1 increments (because it's really the attribute bonus or penalty that matters, not the ability score).

Want more points? Take penalties. So you get something like this loadout:

S: +3

I: -1

W: +0

D: +2

Con: +2

Cha: +0

Hmm. Maybe six points is too much for a C&C character, since the max is generally +3. Maybe four points would be better.

I'm sure people have made point-buy sytems galore. Anyone have ideas?

Brian

I actually use a 6 point buy myself and have no problems with it. I had a friend who actually had it be 10 points! That was excessive! My character was unusual because he only had 2 18s, several 16s, and an 8.
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Ok. Here's a combo idea.

Each player rolls 1d6

That number is how many +'s one can start with at base. One then can trade up or down and get more +'s for negatives.

For higher stakes games, roll 2d6

One now has point buy on a sliding scale, and not everyone starts out equal.
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Peter Bradley

I have always sort of liked point-buy because it puts everyone on an even stand. No one has the advantage over anyone so no one feels jealous or upset. Still when I ran my last game I had everyone roll 4d6 drop the lowest score and no one had any problems. My wife has always used point buy, but that is because she has stated numerous times that when she rolls for stats she it looks like she is using two broken hands.

old school gamer wrote:
I have always sort of liked point-buy because it puts everyone on an even stand. No one has the advantage over anyone so no one feels jealous or upset. Still when I ran my last game I had everyone roll 4d6 drop the lowest score and no one had any problems. My wife has always used point buy, but that is because she has stated numerous times that when she rolls for stats she it looks like she is using two broken hands.

, I've had a few players like that over the years.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
One now has point buy on a sliding scale, and not everyone starts out equal.

One system I've seen that I liked for point buy was similar to this, but instead of dealing with the bonuses, it was the actual scores that were used.

So, everyone gets a certain number of base points, and then you rolled a die to add to that number. That way, there is a bit of variation, but you're not going to end up with one person getting all 18s and another with all less than 10.

Personally, when I get people to roll up characters, I use 4d6-L, reroll 1's, but if a character doesn't end up with a total stat bonus of at least +1, the character gets rerolled (so, if you add up all the stat bonuses and they are negative or zero, reroll everything).

4d6 -L, minimum points 78 (13 x 6)

Minimum points can be varied depending on the power level of the game.
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point buy...BOOO!
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