Encumbrance & Spell Components Question

[cheeplives]

I'm just going to say it: in my opinion, the GP Weight system was ridiculous, as is any Encumbrance system that doesn't factor bulk and centers entirely on weight. My example of this is asking someone to carry 15 air-inflated (not helium) balloons from point A to point B with no bags or anything else. The weight is completely negligible, but the damn things are bulky, ain't they? A system that can't take that into account has failed... sure there's always the "use common sense rule" but some people prefer things spelled out. If you're one who prefers "use common sense" then the addition of a rule doesn't harm you... this is a rule that only helps groups that need it.

YMMV, of course... I've designed plenty of RPGs for personal use and I don't always include Encumbrance systems, because I don't think they're universally appropriate by genres... but Fantasy is one that I think really does need one... it's always had one and with the "kick in doors" style of gaming, it is necessary... otherwise you have entire parties running around with ingots of mithril after a particularly bad DM call (true story).
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[Traveller]

Troll Lord wrote:
The more I think about this the more I think the fault lies with you and me. We are assuming that the rules are not consistent because we are assuming that magic items have no weight. But I didn't write the encumbrance rules and they were approved by Mac and Davis, both of whom signed off on them before I looked at them. Knowing Davis and the way he games (I can't call him as he is in Milwaukee at a funeral right now) I will bet a large sum of money that magic items have weight and it never occurred to him to assign them a different encumbrance value because they have weight.

Does that make sense? I'm not being argumentative Trav, I just don't agree with your assessment of the lack of clarity here.

Thanks!

Steve

Actually, that does make sense. And it's all good. We're having a civil discourse...and we're not at each other's throats. This is good.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Go0gleplex]

Having dealt with plans and such that contain numerous construction notes that will be read and interpreted by folks with less knowledge of the principles behind the notes and plans... I can say with certitude, that if you are not gearing your explanation detail and language to draw a simple picture any 10-year-old can follow, then discussion/defensive arguements such as this are inevitable.

And that is seems to be the main issue. The system was not explained with enough detail in simplest terms to be followed by any given 10-year-old. Not just the author/creator or like minded folks in on its design. And no. Common sense will not usually suffice for correct use, only mitigate some erroneous assumptions.

An example of this would be in how a pack works. Cheep gave an example based on his knowlege of how the system is to work. Now when I read the entry, it seemed that you paid 2 EV for the pack, plus what was in the pack, which could pack an extra 2 EV into it for free. Obviously this is in error, but based on the description/explanation provided that was the deduction.

The rest is becoming merely a circular arguement going nowhere constructively.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[zarathustra]

Traveller wrote:
I think how the rules are written and read its natural to assume, like Mark did, that magic items have weight and therefor encumbrance equal to that expressed in the PH equipment list. If not listed then the CK must check the ad hoc system and figure it out.

This is exactly what I assumed when I noticed no EV's in M&T.

Why put the ad-hoc system in if they didn't expect readers to be able to simply provide their own values for unusual items using that system?

Or when a reasonable comparison item in the PHB equipment could not be used as a guide.
No EV's in M&T is no big deal.

They have provided a set of examples (equipment list) and a system for doing anything else (ad hoc). Given the whole tone repeated throughout the PHB is; rules lite, simple, if in doubt use your own rule which suits your group, the rules provided seem consistent with that.

If you need a different set of rules or want magic to weight nothing- fine, do it, no one gets hurt and that spirit is supported in the ruleset.

But they have provided a perfectly adequate set of rules there (in fact 2 alternatives with the "eyeball" and more detailed method which is still one of the better ones I've seen) which work for those who just want to get on with playing and which with the ad-hoc system and a equipment list for comparison can be applied to basically anything you need it to.

In fact not having EV built right into other books (apart from the "default" method of ad-hoc and PHB list comparison I assumed was intended) makes it easier for those eyeball and house rule folks to get on with doing it their way too.

So maybe the only revision needed is a simple sentence or two in M&T or anything else advising folks do just that?

[Lord Dynel]

Yeah, I never assumed that magic items lacked weight and EVs. Maybe it's wrong of me (and I'm knocking the game), but this was one of those things to me, like weapon descriptions, that I assumed we were supposed to extrapolate from the list of weights and EVs from the PHB. Even if it wasn't the original intention of the Trolls, I've looked up similarly listed items in the equipment list of the PHB and was able to eyeball an EV if one wasn't listed for a similar item.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Naleax]

cheeplives wrote:
YMMV, of course... I've designed plenty of RPGs for personal use and I don't always include Encumbrance systems, because I don't think they're universally appropriate by genres... but Fantasy is one that I think really does need one... it's always had one and with the "kick in doors" style of gaming, it is necessary... otherwise you have entire parties running around with ingots of mithril after a particularly bad DM call (true story).

Totally agree with your assessment here cheeplives. I'm playing in a dungeon crawl where we just carried assenine amounts of gold and items out of a dungeon and the GM never once questioned it. This was far beyond our means. For me this has totally suspended my sense of belief and it feels more like were playing a video game than anything like a table top roleplaying game.

Now i can understand this type of gaming with youngsters who don't really care about such things, but i have matured in my gaming over the last 28 years and prefer a bit more reality to my gaming. If i want to haul treasure out of dungeons by the truck loads i'll fire up a game of diablo.

Whatever happened to hirelings....

Someone mentioned errata that clarified the EV system. Where would that errata be located?

Nal

[Troll Lord]

Traveller wrote:
Actually, that does make sense. And it's all good. We're having a civil discourse...and we're not at each other's throats. This is good.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we not supposed to be having civil conversations. Isn't there supposed to be shouting and fire, something is supposed to be burned or the other.
The real problem is going to come when I tell Todd that magic items have weight. He already gives me *#@( every Wednesday night about the ranger primes, as he's playing a 1/2 orc ranger in our regular game . . . and I mean EVERY Wednesday night, and sometimes random phone calls. If I tell him magic items have weight, he's probably just going to punch me.

Of course your point is still valid. The encumbrance needs looked at and this discussion has given me some insight on what to put in the CKG. I've already worked on expanding the carrying capacity of animals, and I am adding an EV to it for those CKs who want to use it. And a short paragraph explaining magic etc in the M&T is necessary as the majority of our players come from the D&D experience.
Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[seskis281]

I go with this most often -

Let the characters sweat and come up with inventive solutions to hauling loot in the early levels (floating disk to get stuff up/out then hauling by pack, etc.)

I do encumbrance by "tell me what you are wearing and using... I'll tell you if you are light, medium or heavy and what that means"

Then usually around 4th or 5th level I go with the ole standby -
Bag of Holding to be found, later perhaps another.... then we don't have to worry about it unless my characters start talking about collecting truly large objects
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

[Christina Stiles]

seskis281 wrote:
Then usually around 4th or 5th level I go with the ole standby -
Bag of Holding to be found, later perhaps another.... then we don't have to worry about it unless my characters start talking about collecting truly large objects

Lol! Excllent workaround!
_________________
Christina Stiles

The Misfit Troll Word Wrangler
www.christinastiles.com
www.misfit-studios.com
www.trolllord.com

[serleran]

Some players, like me, should not be allowed a bag of holding unless you want prisoners and vampires stored in them.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[cheeplives]

Naleax wrote:
Someone mentioned errata that clarified the EV system. Where would that errata be located?

Nal

It's in the Keeper's Advice Forum
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

[Breakdaddy]

serleran wrote:
Some players, like me, should not be allowed a bag of holding unless you want prisoners and vampires stored in them.

HAH! One of my players stored a halfling prisoner in his bag of holding. Later that day when he got back to the village to administer justice, he opened the bag and the halfling sprang out with several of the PCs items. They killed the halfling, but not before he killed one PC with one of the group's own stored items (quarterstaff +2 IIRC) and used the last charge in their wand of lightning. They werent too bright. They stored a scroll with all of their command words in the bag with a few of the items that the command words actually activated. They also stored a stone enchanted with continual light in there for a nice bit of reading light. Lesson learned. I wonder how much air is in a bag of holding? Would someone eventually choke to death from lack of air in there?

[seskis281]

Yeah - I give 5 minutes for live beings in a bag of holding before they expire.

My groups have learned that the hard way when returning to town with a prisoner they stuck in one.... several days prior...

They had to purify contents

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

[Breakdaddy]

seskis281 wrote:
Yeah - I give 5 minutes for live beings in a bag of holding before they expire.

My groups have learned that the hard way when returning to town with a prisoner they stuck in one.... several days prior...

They had to purify contents

Haha thats harsh! This was all within the span of about 4 hours so I didnt kill off the prisoner. Plus it added so much entertainment value for yours truly to hoist them on their own petard that I couldnt resist.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I've never really had to worry about prisoners in my games. I think my groups have generally flown the black flag....

Death without quarter. Why get information from somebody we can't trust when we can get it from somebody who merits a little less distrust.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I'm also a fan of false teeth with poison in them for my critical NPCs.

[Breakdaddy]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
I've never really had to worry about prisoners in my games. I think my groups have generally flown the black flag....

Death without quarter. Why get information from somebody we can't trust when we can get it from somebody who merits a little less distrust.

I thought no quarter was the red flag and the black flag was "we expect you to surrender"... I NEED TO EDUCATE MAHSELF

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Breakdaddy wrote:
I thought no quarter was the red flag and the black flag was "we expect you to surrender"... I NEED TO EDUCATE MAHSELF

The red flag means the race has been stopped. The black flag orders a driver to pit road.

[Breakdaddy]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
The red flag means the race has been stopped. The black flag orders a driver to pit road.

So when Henry Morgan raised the red flag he was telling the Galleon that the race has been stopped. NICE. Ill tell you what, I'm learning a whole lot today!

[serleran]

Some say the Jolly Roger flag came from a solid red flag, which was used to indicate no mercy/quarter, originally called a "Jolie Rouge" ("Happy Red"). Complete black, on the other hand, was a "death is coming" thing, implying that surrender was inevitable and that the pirates came to fight; white, as we'd expect now, meant surrender (and was often used when chasing an enemy), but not that of the one waving it -- whomever saw it was expected to obey. Various symbols, like the skulls and crossbones, have their own, relatively obvious meanings.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Troll Lord]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
I've never really had to worry about prisoners in my games. I think my groups have generally flown the black flag....

Death without quarter. Why get information from somebody we can't trust when we can get it from somebody who merits a little less distrust.

LOLOL I can relate to this, even when they wear a white hat.

CK: "Todd, your a paladin, don't you think gouging his eyes out and crucifying him is a bit over the top. All he did was question why you were entering the town...and he is a city guard!"

Todd: "That was the lawful good response."

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Breakdaddy]

Troll Lord wrote:
LOLOL I can relate to this, even when they wear a white hat.

CK: "Todd, your a paladin, don't you think gouging his eyes out and crucifying him is a bit over the top. All he did was question why you were entering the town...and he is a city guard!"

Todd: "That was the lawful good response."

Steve

Todd scares me

[zarathustra]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
The red flag means the race has been stopped. The black flag orders a driver to pit road.

Um, you guys are all mixed up- Black Flag was a hell of a band though.

[Breakdaddy]

zarathustra wrote:
Um, you guys are all mixed up- Black Flag was a hell of a band though.

Yeah Hank Rollins is the man.

[serleran]

Absolutely, especially in Deathdealer: A Documentary, a short 15 (roughly) movie with him as the Grim Reaper... worth watching for those interested.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Traveller]

zarathustra wrote:
Um, you guys are all mixed up- Black Flag was a hell of a band though.

No no no. Black Flag is insect poison. So you're all wrong!
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[koralas]

cheeplives wrote:
I'm just going to say it: in my opinion, the GP Weight system was ridiculous, as is any Encumbrance system that doesn't factor bulk and centers entirely on weight. My example of this is asking someone to carry 15 air-inflated (not helium) balloons from point A to point B with no bags or anything else. The weight is completely negligible, but the damn things are bulky, ain't they? A system that can't take that into account has failed... sure there's always the "use common sense rule" but some people prefer things spelled out. If you're one who prefers "use common sense" then the addition of a rule doesn't harm you... this is a rule that only helps groups that need it.

Actually cheep, the GP encumbrance system wasn't just about weight, it included bulk in the calculations,

1st Ed PHB, page 101 (Column 2, Paragraph5) -

Quote:
Whatever you select to carry will have both weight and volume (or bulk). Equipment for adventuring is necessary, but too much is deadly. In order to be able to move with reasonable rapidity and freedom, the number of items carried and apparel worn must suit encumbrance restrictions. (Remember that the volume of something can be as critical as its weight, i.e. 20 pounds of feathers in a sack are cumbersome.) To be useful, items generally must be readily accessible, so this consideration must also be borne in mind. Lastly, as the main purpose of adventuring is to bring back treasure, provision for carrying out a considerable amount of material must also be made. The table below gives you a guideline respecting weight and bulk carried and how movement is affected:

1st Ed DMG, P225 (Column 2, Paragraphs 2-3) -

Quote:
Many other things will be bought or found, but it is impossible to list them all here. The encumbrance of most items not on this list may be inferred by comparison with objects similar to them; thus a decanter of endless water will encumber as much as a bottle or flagon. In some cases no equivalent may be found on the table; such instances require the judge to decide.

Many people looking at the table will say, "But a scroll doesn't weigh two pounds!" The encumbrance figure should not be taken as the weight of the object - it is the combined weight and relative bulkiness of the item. These factors together will determine how much a figure can carry.

And perhaps my favorite reason for tracking, at least at a high level, encumbrance, same page, after describing what to PC's are carrying in paragraphs 4-6, the 7th paragraph states -

Quote:
As they leave, Dimwall and Drudge meet the troll. There is little time to react, so Drudge must quickly drop his lantern (possibly putting it out) and attack. As he does this, Dimwall must drop the large sack (probably scattering coins about), unsling his pack, and start digging for his oil. By the time he finds it, the troll may have killed them both!

Which is why I hated feats in d20 like "Quick draw" where you could ready a weapon with no actions being taken up. Sure, if your hands are otherwise unoccupied, go for it, but if they contain other items, what happens...
So the AD&D and C&C encumbrance systems are actually spot on similar, except C&C RAW only abstracts it further.

[koralas]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Yeah, I never assumed that magic items lacked weight and EVs. Maybe it's wrong of me (and I'm knocking the game), but this was one of those things to me, like weapon descriptions, that I assumed we were supposed to extrapolate from the list of weights and EVs from the PHB. Even if it wasn't the original intention of the Trolls, I've looked up similarly listed items in the equipment list of the PHB and was able to eyeball an EV if one wasn't listed for a similar item.

LD I agree, and take it a step farther, I always assumed magic items had weight in D&D (and consequently in C&C), in fact, as doing some research in the AD&D 1st Ed. system came across a few references that in AD&D Magic Items do have weight...

DMG Page 225 (Column 2, Paragraph 2, Sentence 2) -

Quote:
encumbrance of most items not on this list may be inferred by comparison with objects similar to them; thus a decanter of endless water

will encumber as much as a bottle or flagon.

DMG Page 225 (Column 1, Paragraph 2, Sentence 3-4) -

Quote:
Regardless of what is put into this item, the bag of holding always weighs a fixed amount. This weight, the bag's weight limit in contents, and its volume content are dependent upon its quality as shown below:

(this was also pointed out by someone else on the forum)

DMG Page 164, Column 2 (Paragraph 13) -

Quote:
For game purposes all magical armor should be considered as being virtually weightless - equal to normal clothing, let us assume. This gives characters so clad a base movement speed equal to an unarmored man. Magic shields, however, weigh the same as a normal shield of the same size.

However, as pointed towards in the UA Page 104 (Column 1, Paragraph 7) -

Quote:
Elfin Chain Mail is magical armor of a sort that is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without revealing that it is there. Because of its incredible lightness and flexibility, thieves can utilize it, though it may slightly hinder their activities.

There are still some issues with other magical armors and bulk, to which the "weightless" note above does not help address. In those instances it is up to the DM as stated on DMG Page 225, Column 2 (Paragraph 2, last sentence) -

Quote:
In some cases no equivalent may be found on the table; such instances require the judge to decide.

[koralas]

Troll Lord wrote:
I'm sorry dude, but here I have to completely disagree with you. Whereas the assumed weightlessness of magic items accounts for some problems the non-magical items are completely unquantifiable. I don't know what size of tapestry serleran is going to award his players so I can't fix an encumbrance. He may have a 5000gp tapestry that is 2' x 3'. I don't know what size the candle holder is or the statue. You have to use the ad hoc encumbrance for that to determine weight and size. The M&T doesn't establish any size or weight for any extra-ordinary item given and it doesn't for a reason. I don't know what kind of treasure serleran wants to give so i can't give it a size or weight, just a chart that gives him a ball park of scroll case = to this amount.

Uhm, Steve are you stealing quotes from Gary -

PHB Page 102 (Column 1, Paragraph 3) -

Quote:
Strength penalties or bonuses will modify these guidelines. Weight is usually stated in gold pieces, 10 gold pieces equalling 1# (pound). Volume can only be calculated from known comparisons, as the size and shape of objects varies from individual to individual, i.e. how big is a tapestry?

DMG Page 225 (Column 2, Paragraph 2) -

Quote:
Many people looking at the table will say, "But a scroll doesn't weigh two pounds!" The encumbrance figure should not be taken as the weight of the object - it is the combined weight and relative bulkiness of the item. These factors together will determine how much a figure can carry

Funny that your two specific examples were mirrored in the PHB and DMG discussion of encumbrance!

The 1st Ed DMG didn't give weights for 99% of the magic items, but rather used the ad-hoc system presented on page 225, and the relevant tables in the PHB on pages 37-38.

See my above posts for pertinent sections pulled from 1st Ed. for comparison/contrast/just plain old nostalgia.

[cheeplives]

koralas wrote:
Actually cheep, the GP encumbrance system wasn't just about weight, it included bulk in the calculations,

But in a system with mechanical differences between a Bec de Corbin, a Bill, a Glaive, and a Glaive Guisarme, I find a few paragraphs tellings players to "take in account volume" to be disingenuous at best. There's nothing in the game mechanically that accounts for volume... you can carry X GP in items and each item weighs Y GP... there's nothing in it saying "add Z GP when an item is bulky" or anything like that.

So, while I appreciate that some lip service was paid to the concept of volume, older versions of D&D never actually mechanized it to the point of it being anything more than a GM call.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!