Troll Lord Games

Pretty please????

I believe that the .doc was being worked on, but was put on the back burner while various people became involved in other projects. There was a consolidation .pdf released that had pretty much the stuff talked about in this tread on one .pdf. Can't remember who did that one though.

...................................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

If that doc or pdf is still floating out there somewhere I would love to see it as well.

ronin84 at sbcglobal.net

I have been unable to get my hands on it as well.

Sorry guys, I have had some problems with my hard drives, and I am still in the process of recovering the documents. As soon as I have them ready, I will send them to you all.

Thanks for the interest!

Antonio

Thanks for the update and good luck!

I'm almost finished unpacking after my move. I'll check my maxtor tomorrow & see if I've got a copy. It won't be until the evening as the firewalls at work are nasty......
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

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Did this great start ever get finished....

I've never been able to get anything on it.
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It's a lot of work, plain and simple. Antonio is the kind of gamer that always seems to have a dozen things on his plate. What he has done so far in this thread alone is a great to build from with your own Middle-Earth feel.

I was beginning an ARNOR game last June, that sort of fell apart at the last minute (which sucks), but the amount of work that went into it was considerable, even given the easy nature of C&C.

......................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Sorry guys, RL intruded in all my projects
That, plus I recently got married and got a "job promotion".

Finally, my only player now is my wife, who only likes Mentzer D&D. And in fact, I made a Mentzer version of Middle Earth (and a Mentzer version of Dragonlance; and recently I introduced her to Warhammer FRP1e, and she might like it better than Mentzer ).

When I have the time, I might perhaps return to C&C. But for the foreseeable future, I do not have the time to work on it. Sorry again, and thanks for the interest!

In any case, I would be delighted to see what others have to add to what I wrote. As Omote said, it should at least be enough to start your own campaign. And if I can give a suggestion: do not feel too bound by the works of Tolkien; the setting is flexible enough to be adapted to one's style of play.

So does anyone have any of this info still?
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The Lord of Ravens
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I would love to know too.
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I know most of the people here want some specific rules all worked up, but really take common sense into your game and just play right out the the C&C PHB. Make things simple like eliminating clerics, wizards or the like and go from there. BAM, you're ready to go.

It's quick. It's dirty. And best of all you're gaming Middle-Earth right now.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

SOOOOOOOO I have finally found the time (and the will) to return to this project. I have nearly finished adaptation of ALL the spells in the Decipher book. Meanwhile, here is the Magician class with some example spells converted to C&C. I have retained the spell picks and casting check ideas, but I merged it within C&C's level system. To cast a spell, a charisma save is required, the CL depending on the spell. Failure means that the magician suffers 1HP subdual damage due to weariness. There are other rules, I will report them as soon as I complete the document.

The magician

Prime: charisma

HD: d4

BtH: as wizard

Weapons: as wizard, plus special (a preferred or racial specific weapon)

Armor: as rogue

Abilities: Spellcasting, Decipher script, Legend Lore, Spellcasting methods, Spell specialties, Sanctum Power

Spellcasting: at 1st, 3rd, and every other level thereafter the magician gains five spell picks with which to acquire or develop spells (see magic rules).

Spell specialty: at 2nd level and every other level thereafter the magician can choose a spell specialty (see magic rules)

Spellcasting method: at 4th and 8th level the magician can choose a spellcasting method (see magic rules).

Sanctum Power: at 12th level the magician gains the Power of the Land spell as an ability.

EXAMPLE SPELLS

ANIMAL MESSENGER

CASTING TIME:2

RANGE: Touch

DURATION: Special

WEARINESS CL: -5

COST: 1 spell pick

REQUISITE: Beast Speech or Beast Summoning

METHOD: Standard

SPECIALTY: Beasts

SOURCE: Core rulebook, page 174

EFFECT: The caster uses a beast or bird as a messenger,

having it send information to someone else. The caster must have

the creature available to himbecause it is a pet or companion,

or through Beast Summoning or other magic. The caster speaks

the message to the creature, describes the person to deliver it to,

and where that person can be found. The creature travels and

searches for a number of hours equal to the spellcasters level.

If the creature gets close enough to the target, it delivers the

message (the target automatically understands the message). If

the creature fails to find the target within the spells duration, the

spell ends and the creature returns to its normal pursuits.

BANE-SPELL

CASTING TIME:1 minute

RANGE: Touch

DURATION: 1 minute per level

WEARINESS CL: 0

COST: 2 spell picks

METHOD: Standard, Runes

SPECIALTY: None

SOURCE: Core rulebook, page 174

EFFECT: The caster can lay upon a weapon the power to cause

special harm to one type of creature or being. The caster must

specify the target affected, e.g., Orcs, wolves, dragons, or

Dunlendings. By increasing the spells CL by +2, the caster can

expand the target to cover more than one type of being; e.g., Orcs

and Trolls, beasts, servants of Sauron, or the Free Peoples.

A Bane-spelled weapon provides a +3 bonus to hit, to strike the type of being against whom

it is enchanted. Also, at the Narrators

discretion, a bane-weapon may have the ability to pierce or

diminish protective spells used by the target, such as

Bladeshattering or the Guarding-spell.

BEAST SPEECH

CASTING TIME:1

RANGE: Self

DURATION: 1 minute per level

WEARINESS CL: -5

COST: 1 spell pick

METHOD: Standard, Ability

SPECIALTY: Beasts

SOURCE: Core rulebook, pages 174-5

EFFECT: This spell grants the caster the ability to speak with

birds and animals. He can speak with any creature close enough

to hear him, and that creature can automatically understand him

and respond with intelligence equal to those of a typical Man. Other

people listening to the conversation merely hear sounds like

animal noises.

At the Narrators option, a spellcaster can cast this spell upon

another character by touch, but only when casting it as a standard

spell, not when using it as a magic ability.

Groovy! Lookin' forward to it as your work is always top notch!

rabind Good stuff.

I know I promised to throw some of my stuff up here but work has gotten nasty busy....
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

Magician (Intelligence)

From the stories of myth and legend come these wielders of magic fair and foul, divine and demonic. Whereas clerics can rely on their deities to ensure success, magicians are left with naught but their own skill and luck.

ABILITIES

Wand: Magic is difficult to control so most magicians use a wand or similar device to help focus their concentration, as well as the magical energies being directed. Spells may still be cast without a wand but the Challenge Base increases to 18. Some magicians choose other objects aside from wands. Other common items include staffs and amulets. Replacing a wand takes one month worth work and attuning the item and 1,000 gold pieces worth of materials.

Spells: Magicians wield magic by casting spells. They do not draw the curious distinction between so-called Arcane and Divine magic that so many others do. Magicians have the capacity to learn any spell from any list and can do so at the lowest possible level. That is, unless a magician chooses to specialize and then some restrictions apply.

Bonus Spells: With a high intelligence score, a magician gains bonus spells. If the character has an intelligence score between 13-15, he gains an extra 1st level spell. If the intelligence score is 16 or 17, the magician gains an extra 2nd level spell and if the Intelligence score is 18 or 19, he receives an extra 3rd level spell. Bonus spells can only be acquired if the magician is at a high enough level to cast them. Bonus spells are cumulative.

Spell Points: Magicians do not have a set number of spell slots per day. Rather, they have a pool of magical energy they can use to cast any spell they have in memory. Every level, a magician gains a certain number of spell points modified by his Charisma bonus.

Optional: Sometimes, in fantasy novels, even casting spells successfully seems to be physically exhausting. Temporary ability score damage can be used to represent this. This could be in addition to a spell point cost, replace spell points completely, or act as a reserve of magic power that is tapped when a character runs out of spell points. For the most part, Strength should be used, but if you wish to make the use of magic even more dangerous, then use Constitution instead. It is recommended that forms of magic healing not be allowed to restore ability damage suffered from casting.

Spell Casting (Intelligence): The act of casting a spell is both difficult and dangerous for a magician. When attempting to cast a spell an Intelligence check is made. The Challenge Base is usually 12 (18 without a wand) with a Challenge Level equal to the level of the spell being cast plus or minus other factors. The caster may add his/her magic bonus to the roll. In addition, the magician must expend a number of spell points equal to the level of the spell. In the case of 0 level spells, the magician may cast a number equal to his/her Charisma bonus (to a minimum of 0) in a day without expending any spell points. However, after this number, each 0 level spell costs 1 spell point.

Spell Book: The number of spells that a magician has in his/her spell book at the beginning of play is equal to the number of spells they can have readied at first level.

Spell Casting Bonus: A magicians spell casting bonus is added to his/her casting roll. The bonus is also used as the caster level when determining damage, range, and other variables. See the Magician subclass table for spell casting bonus ratings.

Spells Readied: Like the rest of us, magicians can only keep a limited amount of complex information in their memories and the rest must be looked up. The number of spells a magician can keep actively in mind is given in table 5. Spells stay in the magicians memory until he/she spends an hour studying his/her spell book to change the spells he/she has readied.

I'm just curious.....how in the world do you have a casting class in Middle Earth? The only magic wielders should be the istari. Magicians don't make sense in Middle Earth at all.

You could get aorund it a bit by making them like the lore Master class in The Lord of the Rings Online though so that they aren't casting actual spells but instead masters or arcane knowledge they use to hurl contraptions they make.
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daddystabz wrote:
The only magic wielders should be the istari. Magicians don't make sense in Middle Earth at all.

Untrue, as Wizardry is a word used by the Eldar in The Silmarillion, both by the Noldor (IIRC, by Feanor) and Sindar (by Thingol among others). That predates the appearance of the Istari Order in Middle-Earth by a full age (since the first of the Istari Order appeared mid-2nd Age). There is also the fact that The Hobbit has a character that Tolkien himself defined as a bit of a Magician (Beorn).
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Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society

I am not convinced he meant magician in the D&D sense of the term. Also, you might want to take up your argument with about 95% of all Tolkien scholars who state outright that having any magic wielders in a Middle Earth setting outside the Istari or high elven magic (enchantment) is completely inappropriate.

This is the entire reason why when The Lord of the Rings Online launched, their Tolkien scholars that have consulted the dev team suggested the Lore Master class as a substitute for a magic class outright. This is why you cannot play a magic wielder in LoTRO at all.

Here is their explanation:

"I want to be Gandalf. We all do. But lets face it, there was only one Grey Wizard, and only 5 total Wizards during all of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Anyone familiar with the lore of LotRO will know that there werent any real casters in Middle-Earth. Even the wizards, or Istari, like Gandalf and Saruman used a subtle form of magic, and there were only 5 of their order in all of the land. The Istari were like demi-gods of a kind, and so one cant really expect to see hundreds roaming about in the game. That would not only upset fans like me, but likely Saul Zaentz as well over at the Tolkien estate.

So Turbine had to approach how players would interact with the world very carefully, and in terms of classes they had to be very careful not to upset the delicate balance of what is and what is not appropriate for the Lord of the Rings license. Lets take a look at each of the seven classes in Lord of the Rings Online, and talk about exactly what they are, and how they play. Heck, I'll even throw in a few screens of the character creation process, for good measure.

While at first glance the Lore Master might seem like a poor mans mage class, in effect the class is really all about three 3 things: pets, buffs/debuffs, and crowd control. The spells wielded by the Lore Master are not magic in any sense of the word, but rather applications of knowledge concerning nature that the character has amassed over his or her studious life."

I must also take you to task about you saying the Istari didn't appear till the 2nd. age. Remember that each of the Istari are Maiar and thus entered the world not long after its creation. So they had been in the world of Arda long before they appeared as the order of the Istari. They formed the order of the Istari and entered into Middle Earth around the first millenium of the 3rd. age.

I am not trying to be an ass....just trying to help out! I sincerely appreciate the work and effort put forth into this! Don't take me the wrong way please.
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As yes, THE debate again!
With a little more "spellcasting" in a Midde-Earth game, ala Decipher's LOTR RPG, I think it could work in way to make everybody happy, and feel a bit more like traditional JRR magic.

If Decipher did one thing right, it was magic... in a game sense. Want Decipher's spells to feel even more like the books, cut out most of those spells.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

This is one reason I have abandoned trying to adapt Middle earth to gaming. Personally I don't have a problem with C&C style wizards there. If you want it no big deal. Of course I'm not a rabid fanboy of Middle Earth either. To be honest I always thought the books rather dry and boring until my most recent attempt at a read through and have actually appreciated them more. But I still prefer Narnia over Middle Earth. Which, BTW, I would like to see attempted as a setting.

IMHO ME cannot be converted wholly without altering some things and spellcasting has to be one of the things altered to work.
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If the game takes place after the Lord of the rings many options for magic open up. Before that and you are limited if you want to stay 100% true to "the word".

I myself don't care what way you go with it BUT unless you place a:

This is not pure Tolkien and I have altered and taken advantage of many things to make changes so that the role playing game will be fun for all.

Then you will indeed have fanboys screaming for blood at the slightest infraction on the written word.
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Quote:
But I still prefer Narnia over Middle Earth. Which, BTW, I would like to see attempted as a setting.

I've never though about that but it would be a great game world.

Quote:
IMHO ME cannot be converted wholly without altering some things and spellcasting has to be one of the things altered to work.

Rogo on that. I love the books & the world, but some people get two uptight about staying true to the word of the books. To me if you are playing in ME then you'd do well to muddle a little with the world and have a fun game & not worry about the the sacrosanct ... avoid the ring Bilbo etc etc.

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Decipher's LOTR RPG

???? I must be tired or slow but I don't recognize that.
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

Decipher made a pen & paper rpg based on the popular movies by Peter Jackson. I have a lot of materials for that game.

Please don't get me wrong all. Middle Earth is imo the ULTIMATE fantasy setting and as a fan of Tolkien and Arda itself if I role-play in Middle Earth I want to simply stay true to the books as much as possible. What you all do in your own campaigns is your own business. I'm not trying to tell others what to do.
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Julian Grimm wrote:
This is one reason I have abandoned trying to adapt Middle earth to gaming. Personally I don't have a problem with C&C style wizards there. If you want it no big deal. Of course I'm not a rabid fanboy of Middle Earth either. To be honest I always thought the books rather dry and boring until my most recent attempt at a read through and have actually appreciated them more. But I still prefer Narnia over Middle Earth. Which, BTW, I would like to see attempted as a setting.

IMHO ME cannot be converted wholly without altering some things and spellcasting has to be one of the things altered to work.

I'd love to play a game set in Narnia. It would be great. Though I gotta say that I've run some very, very fantastic Middle Earth games recently using Spirit of the Century. It just felt right.

The simple answer is just don't use them if you don't think they should be in there. Unless you can find a quote from Tolkien saying, "the only magic wielders are the 5 Istari," or something like that, even the scholars are making guesses (albeit, educated ones). I will admit that the kind of magic in the books is usually pretty subtle. With that in mind, the Magician class I presented above has a fair amount of flexibility in that regard. I was toying with the idea of restricting the class (in my own non-Middle Earth campaign) to the Hedge Wizard specialty which uses Druid and Illusionist spells only.

daddystabz wrote:
I am not convinced he meant magician in the D&D sense of the term.

I did not say it was so. You are making the assumption I said so.

Quote:
Also, you might want to take up your argument with about 95% of all Tolkien scholars who state outright that having any magic wielders in a Middle Earth setting outside the Istari or high elven magic (enchantment) is completely inappropriate.

Excepting that The Lord of the Rings itself doesn't say that. There is also the fact that The Mouth of Sauron is a SORCERER according to the text. Then there are 'all the spells in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs'.

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This is the entire reason why when The Lord of the Rings Online launched, their Tolkien scholars that have consulted the dev team suggested the Lore Master class as a substitute for a magic class outright. This is why you cannot play a magic wielder in LoTRO at all.

Do not bring up that atrocity of a game. The so called 'Tolkien Scholars' are either full of crap or don't exist. I know this because I followed the development of that game in September of '03. Its no more faithful to Tolkien that those stupid movies.

Quote:
So Turbine had to approach how players would interact with the world very carefully, and in terms of classes they had to be very careful not to upset the delicate balance of what is and what is not appropriate for the Lord of the Rings license.

I am going to refrain from commenting on this section as it will serve no purpose but cause a flame war.

Quote:
I must also take you to task about you saying the Istari didn't appear till the 2nd. age. Remember that each of the Istari are Maiar and thus entered the world not long after its creation. So they had been in the world of Arda long before they appeared as the order of the Istari. They formed the order of the Istari and entered into Middle Earth around the first millenium of the 3rd. age.

Please tell me where I said, or implied, the Maia and Vala did not enter into Arda before the 2nd Age? That is an absolutely absurd statement for you to claim I made. As for the Heren Istarion, think again.
Last Writings

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorifindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorifindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehter and Romenstamo. Darkness-slayer and Easter-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled against Melkor-worship to stir up rebellion....and after his fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the Dark east....They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East....who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West.

- JRR Tolkien, History of Middle-Earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-Earth pp. 384-385
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Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society

You are arguing with the most prominent Tolkien scholars in the world. It is VERY common knowledge that magic was VERY rare and subtle in middle earth and no matter how you wish to spin it there should NOT be a magician class or a sorceror or a wizard in middle earth. The Istari are the only such casters in the third age. If you are playing in the first age then you have a small amount more leeway but if you really want to argue this with me I will be happy to link you to essays by Tolkien scholars the very statements of people like Christopher Tolkien himself.

Magic is subtle and extremely rare in Middle Earth. Wizards do not go around hurling firebals and magic missiles and Mages do not go around summoning familiars. That is common fact.

Also, keep in mind that much of the History of Middle Earth book is based upon earlier texts that were pre-drafts of what Tolkien later used to write his masterpieces.

From the Encyclopedia of Arda: "Dates Came to Middle-earth c. III 1000. Saruman was slain in III 3019 and Gandalf left Middle-earth in III 3021; the fates of the other Istari are unknown

Race Ainur

Division Maiar

Pronunciation ee'staree

Meaning 'Wise Ones'

Other Names Ithryn, Wizards

Titles Istari is a plural term; the singular form (equivalent to 'wizard') is istar

The order of Wizards, the Maiar who came to Middle-earth after the first millennium of the Third Age. Of these, five came to the northwestern regions; Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando."
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