Troll Lord Games

While running my C&C campaign for the Friday night crew we stumbled across something interesting.

The group had an encounter with a medusa. Three PC's met the gaze of the medusa and one was turned to stone after failing his wisdom save vs. Petrification. Seconds later i grabbed the M&T to find out whether or not they had to save each time they met the gaze. Lo and behold the save against a Medusa's petrifying gaze is based on Strength. The PC that failed was saved because of this.

Later that night we looked up Cockatrice and found it's save to be vs Strength as well. We all looked a bit befuddled after discussing what strength has to do with a petrifying effect, especially when petrification saves fall under wisdom according to the PHB.

Anyone have some insight to this reasoning. It's kind of contradictory.

Thanks,

Nal

Yeah, the Trolls didn't follow their own rules. If you look in the PH under the saves section you will see what all saves are supposed to be. You'll see that the Trolls did not consistently follow their own saving throw guidelines, especially with regards to spells.

To be fair, they kind of ended up having to go that route, or certain attributes would be seen as "more powerful" because they save versus more things than other attributes.

Which is still the case, but it is no where near as blatantly lopsided as it would otherwise be.
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Could be that Robert Doyel had it at STR when he submitted the M&T and Steve didnt move it over to WIS. Maybe Robert can comment on this, Im not sure.

This is something I hadn't even noticed, yet.

This could be another interesting, "is it the correct attribute to be associated with?" conversation!

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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Which brings me to a whole new question. Should there be more than one applicable attribute to use as a save? This gives the pc more survivablity. People lean on their strengths to pull them through tight situations, and those strengths may or may not be best suited for the task at hand...but it's what they are best at. So one guy may lean on his raw muscle power to physically push through it, literally breaking up the spell, while the other guy, with his phenomenal iron will, refuses to "let it in" and the spell disappates.

I have been mulling this over for a while, but havent impelemented it yet. I rather like it. Some spells could very well have more than one applicable save.
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Piperdog, that's an interesting idea.

Some will call it munchkin-ish, but I like the character-ness of it, and the deadliness of C&C spells is well documented, perhaps this could be a balance.

If I had to pick, I'd say follow the entry in the M&T if M&T contradicts PHB. I should probably think otherwise, but my gut says they put thought into the monsters while writing the monster books....

though, one must be Wise to avoid the gaze... or strong to , um, stay fleshy... i'd say CON is better if not Wis.

or fortitude. The saves might be a 3rd ed thing that was pretty good.

am I rambling enough?

I think I'd ignore the M&T entry on this and go with the saving throw designation. After all...we all know what happens to the typing when the trolls start relaxing.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

There are two thought processes on petrification:

1) complete physical transformation, resisted by Strength

2) mental shut-down producing a sort of catatonia (very similar to paralysis, really) resisted by Wisdom.

However, the general rule is Wisdom, and it is very simple to explain why -- Clerics have Wisdom Prime, by default. Clerics in a certain inspirational game have their best saves against petrification and paralysis.

It cannot be forgotten the reason C&C exists. Read the foreword in the PHB.

Oh, and the "rules for saves" are actually Guidelines. They are not hard-and-fast must-use situations, but general categories for simplicity.

At my table, a medusa or cockatrice save vs. petrification is against Strength because clerics get too much already.
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Serl's Corner

[quote="serleran"]There are two thought processes on petrification:

1) complete physical transformation, resisted by Strength

2) mental shut-down producing a sort of catatonia (very similar to paralysis, really) resisted by Wisdom.

[/quote]

Well that explains things quite neatly.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

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Treebore wrote:
Yeah, the Trolls didn't follow their own rules. If you look in the PH under the saves section you will see what all saves are supposed to be. You'll see that the Trolls did not consistently follow their own saving throw guidelines, especially with regards to spells.

To be fair, they kind of ended up having to go that route, or certain attributes would be seen as "more powerful" because they save versus more things than other attributes.

Which is still the case, but it is no where near as blatantly lopsided as it would otherwise be.

The rule is just very contradictory. Had I not looked at M&T to verify something two players would have been rolling up new characters. Both had low wisdom scores but better strength scores. We opted to go strength because the M&T stated strength but we all wondered what strength had to do with anything petrification related.

Go0gleplex wrote:
I think I'd ignore the M&T entry on this and go with the saving throw designation. After all...we all know what happens to the typing when the trolls start relaxing.

I agree with you Go0gleplex. After giving this some thought Wisdom is the most applicable stat to govern petrification.

Consider the Medusa's gaze. You have to meet the gaze to be turned to stone. A glance or peek is not sufficient but would call for a save to be made. I see this as one of those things you just can't turn away from. Once you see it the enchantment or horror behind it enthralls you and your gaze is locked on it. Good wisdom would alert you to the danger and allow you to avert your gaze before the medusa's turn to stone effect could harm you. Strength has absolutely no bearing here.

I'll be scratching out the mention of strength in my M&T and changing them to wisdom.

Thanks for chiming in everyone.

Nal

Strength makes more sense to me than Wisdom.

Our character sheets lack the "typical save types" listed for each attribute so would have gone by M&T anyways.

As for avoidinf a "full-on" look, I'd say wisdom. Petrification? Strength. I only run games, I don't really write em'...so what do I know? hehe

Yep... avoiding a gaze attack that could turn you to stone would be a Wisdom save.
M
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Yeah, I kinda see avoiding a gaze attack as being more of a wisdom save, but avoiding some kind of paralysis is definitely strength. I look at the description in the flavor text when deciding when/if I need to houserule something like that. Speaking from the strictly scientific sense, paralysis and petrification are two very different things. I'd almost see petrification as being a CON save (didn't it used to be a save vs. Petrification/polymorph? This goes back a long way...). I thought the paralysis effect was a different ST.

That sound right Osis. Petrification/ Polymorph...mainly, physical alteration effects. Don't remember which attribute it was connected with though.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

None. AD&D, for the most part, did not necessarily associate attributes with any save category. Dexterity helped with things which could be dodged, Constitution with poison, and Wisdom for charms and the like... Intelligence, if very high, could make you immune to illusions. That's about it.

The saving throws were categorically different.
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
None. AD&D, for the most part, did not necessarily associate attributes with any save category. Dexterity helped with things which could be dodged, Constitution with poison, and Wisdom for charms and the like... Intelligence, if very high, could make you immune to illusions. That's about it.

The saving throws were categorically different.

Indeed. In 2nd ed, Petrification/Polymorph was it's own save category, and not modified by stats, if I recall. 2nd ed saves were a little quirky, IMO, spells (it might have been called "magic) was a save, but petrification and polymorph are both spells... then there's Rod/staff/wand... also magic, but it's own save. I assume there was a reason for this, but it wasn't clear in the 2nd ed books, if I recall correctly. I think I might like the 3rd ed saves better. In C&C though, I do like tieing the saves to the stats so the stats 'all matter'. another 2nd ed quirk, Save vs. Death... maybe I did it wrong, but that was for things that killed you instantly, such as Finger of Death, Death attacks from undead or assassins, spells that caused death... most of which were spells, but Death was it's own thing. ? (not system shock, which was like, if you took 50 hp of damage in 1 attack... or that might have been an optional rule, who can remember if you aren't playing frequently?) This hackmaster like rules bloat is what turned me on to C&C in the first place!

(by no means am I trashing 2nd ed or HM, it's just that returning to gaming after a few years off, I was like, "how can I remember all these rules? and for me, rules light was more appealing)

FWIW, (and back on topic) if I was making this up from scratch, I'd go:

paralysis - STR save

Petrification - CON save (transforming the body into stone, for me, Con fights this off)

not looking at something, WIS.

the problem becomes to fight a medusa, do you allow 2 saves? one to avert your gaze and another to resist the petrification? of course not.

Here's where CK fiat makes sense... if you run into a medusa accidentally, I'd say surprise is enough to determine who looks at it. If someone charges it, I'd go with STR b/c they're actively fighting the effect as they try to kill it. If you're sneaking up for a backstab, or fighting the underlings, I'd go WIS save b/c you're doing something and trying not to look at it.

If you're fleeing in terror, you've probably made your INT check.

i don't see the saving throw as avoiding the gaze, but rather as a save after you have already succumbed.

Everyone that has ever seen clash of the titans know that we are all forewarned not to meet her gaze.

So is that wisdom or freaking common sense?

yet as the hero looks upon her face, it is his body which slowly begins to turn to stone. Thus...Strength effects whether your BODY turns to stone, not whether you are "wise" enough not to look.

Is your body strong enough to break it's hold and continue to move as your muscles slowly seize and your limbs become immobile.

So for the second time, I fully agree with Serl. Strength has more to do with the body resisting things than wisdom does.

I have experience with turning to stone.

When my system begins to calcify kidney stones, it has more to do with my body than my wisdom.

I mean if anyone actually practiced wisdom they would not be in the medusa lair in the first place. Hmmmmm?

Have you seen picutres of the trolls? i doubt they are under divine providence.

Ok sure you got me, Davis looks like Moses, but beyond that it is not by divine inspiration but rather a few guys working together to make a fun game.

I don't get how the rules contradict though? I always thought it was Strength...where does it say Wisdom?

After 4 printings, or is this an old book you have?
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I'd ignore M&T, too, for the record. I know there have been a few oversights in M&T, so I tend to rely on another source if need be.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Interestingly the Transmute Flesh and Stone spell also specifically lists wisdom as the save, rather than the standard arcane magic.

The spell is obviously not a gaze attack so I can only assume they meant wisdom to be the default save for stone to flesh effects. Although I suppose a CK could easily "flavour" the spell to say it functions by an instantaneous gleam in the casters eye, which if the gaze is caught at that monent, turns one to stone and make it fit that way.

If we want to get into houserule territory...

Maybe I'm a softy but turning to stone is so nasty that I'd probly give a wisdom save to avoid the gaze and a final strength save to avoid the full effect if they met it (paralysed for 1d3 rounds while they fought the effect even if saved).

I tend to run low magic campaigns so if you were petrified most likely it'd be for good.

If PC's were actively avoiding the gaze because they'd done some research and found out about the gaze through roleplaying I'd allow a bonus to the save (and an equal and equivalent minus to hit as they kept their gaze averted), but if they just metagamed it and the medusa was not a common monster I'd give no bonus.

zarathustra wrote:
Interestingly the Transmute Flesh and Stone spell also specifically lists wisdom as the save, rather than the standard arcane magic.

Right, but I thought that the rule for spells was that it depended on the spell's effect and whether or not they were under the purview of another governing saving throw. Kind of like why fireball isn't arcane magic but is Dexterity.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

The reason i chose to go with wisdom is three fold. First, wisdom is stated as the governing save for petrification. Since this is in the PHB and this is what the players will be familiar with, it makes the most sense.

Second - and to justify my first reason - a save is needed to determine if the PC has succumbed to the medusa's gaze, not the turn to stone affect. The same goes for a basilisk and a cockatrice all of which have gaze attacks. If you succumb to the gaze you're toast, not vice versa. "Oh i'm turning to stone i think i'll avert my gaze now." - absolutely not.

Third a CK needs a good way to adjudicate who meets the gaze and who is affected by it. Naturally players will know, especially veterans, that it is not wise to look at the medusa and so they will avoid it at all costs. If you wish to attack the medusa there is a chance you're going to meet its gaze and turn to stone, therefore roll a wisdom check.

Now lets assume strength is the governing attribute. I'm going to stare at this medusa all day long with my 18 strength and there is nothing she can do about it. Ha ha! all the way to the bank baby! Slash! Medusa's head tumbles to the ground.

No matter how you look at it (intentional pun) turning to stone is the result of the gaze, not vice versa.

Now, a non gaze effect i can understand being a strength save, but not a medusa's gaze which will turn you to stone. My three reasons above should be sufficient to justify why wisdom is the save and strength is not. But every CK has a mind of his own and if strength is way you roll with petrification i'm down with it, jut not in my game, although i would like to know how you deal with players avoiding the gaze if you play this way?

Lot of good input on this thread, just not enough to convince me to use strength.

Drinking mountain dew will give you kidney stones. Save vs. wisdom to avoid drinking it. Oh you failed your save, now save vs. strength to see if you can pass the kidney stone without passing out. Duh!

Joe wrote:
I don't get how the rules contradict though? I always thought it was Strength...where does it say Wisdom?

After 4 printings, or is this an old book you have?

3rd printing PHB and M&T is what we referenced that night. However, i also have a 4th printing PHB and M&T and it is the same.

Wisdom is the standard save vs petrification according to the C&C players handbook. Under Medusa, Cockatrice and Basilisk it contradicts the PHB and states the save is vs strength.

Relaxo wrote:
the problem becomes to fight a medusa, do you allow 2 saves? one to avert your gaze and another to resist the petrification? of course not.

Here's where CK fiat makes sense... if you run into a medusa accidentally, I'd say surprise is enough to determine who looks at it. If someone charges it, I'd go with STR b/c they're actively fighting the effect as they try to kill it. If you're sneaking up for a backstab, or fighting the underlings, I'd go WIS save b/c you're doing something and trying not to look at it.

If you're fleeing in terror, you've probably made your INT check.

This makes the most sense to me where strength would factor in, but i like to keep the rules simple and this just adds to many factors and rolls for my taste. Good point on the rules though.

Naleax wrote:
3rd printing PHB and M&T is what we referenced that night. However, i also have a 4th printing PHB and M&T and it is the same.

Wisdom is the standard save vs petrification according to the C&C players handbook. Under Medusa, Cockatrice and Basilisk it contradicts the PHB and states the save is vs strength.

I didn't realize there were that many conflicts. In the continued effort that TLG has put forth to make all attribute saving throws relevant, I would probably change them all for Wisdom, personally. I actually agree with Wisdom, too, being the governing attribute.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Neither Str or Wis...it's Con!

I have squared the root of pi, balanced that against the diameter of a flies pubes, and crossed it with the Cartesian system to ultimately and irrequivically prove that it is Constitution that effects those above mentioned saves. If you disagree with my findings that is only because you obviously harbor bigotry and hatred toward the poor downtrodden petryfying types.

There...now you have ther official, based on science proof, a consensus of experts that is no way are motivated by acquiring more research funding, and a little girl down the street.

What has happend is that so many heroes have been turned to stone that it has caused the entire globe to start warming.

What does the warming indicate? Well end of all life of course!

So unless you want the world to end as a result of your horrible crimes against innocent petrifying monsters, you had better take steps to change course.

What is the solution? Well granting medusae, basilisks, and cockatrice...(I said cockatrice) full amnesty and citizenship, and branding our heroes as intolerant medusa bashing bigots...of course.

Of course, you will all be mandated to buy basilisk safe light bulbs but your already doing that arent you?.
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Point of order: A cockatrice's petrification ability is by touch (bite), not gaze. So in that instance I could see STR as the governing save since it is the body's resisting the putrification of the bite (though the argument could be made for CON since it seems like a disease).
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

I'd say Constitution also. The only instances I could see Strength used as a saving throw is if a spell is psychically constraining or a trap like the garbage compactor from Star Wars.

Hello

Googleplex beat me to it as the cockatrice uses a disease to cause petrifaction, so we would use constitution as a save. I use wisdom for medusa and basilisk as you could argue that you had the common sense ( or willpower) not to look even under duress ( its very hard not to look at someone who is attacking you ). For the spell turn to stone i also use wisdom as you are using your willpower to fend off the spell.

Cheers

IMP
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