Troll Lord Games

A Bard's Decipher Script ability gives him a (small) chance to use arcane scrolls, which makes sense, given his affinity for and study of language/symbols/et cetera. I've also been kicking around the idea of allowing Bard's to learn runes as presented in the 2E supplement HR1: Vikings Campaign Sourcebook.

Basically, I'd let the Bard spend XP to learn a single rune, and use the secondary skill costs presented in Gary's Castle Zagyg Class Options & Skills document as a guideline. I think some runes were more powerful than others, so I might need to come up with a XP cost list of some sort.

Anyway, I think this would work well with the SIEGE mechanic, and it seems to fit the concept of the C&C Bard (which seems strongly Norse-flavored, to me). Comments? Suggestions?

Sounds like a plan to me. Although I'd just treat it like a scroll reading ability, which i believe bards get?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I have a runecasting system, if you're interested.

serleran wrote:
I have a runecasting system, if you're interested.

Yes, I'd like to take a look at it.

Alright. Here you go:
Using FUTHARK Runes as Spell Components: All runes are tied to an element, and have associated meanings, which are often used to

provide insight through divinatory practices; however, they may be used to augment and amplify spells, or even, to function as a spell of its own. Any rune which is used to augment a spell must be gestured, drawn into the air, or on the ground, or otherwise imparted in a visual way; if the spell is to affect another being, it must be made visible to its target, though the most common practice is to touch the affected while making the motion. This effectively adds a somatic component to all such

spells, and increases the casting time by two rounds. However, for its drawbacks, the power of the spell is amplified; its effects are resolved as if the caster were one level higher than normal, assuming the rune used is of a similar nature, or is of the same aett; if it is of a dissimilar nature, or of another aett, a combined effect is produced for example, a fireball can be turned into an iceball by applying an Isa rune. In addition, any rune can serve as a single-use spell, usable by any character, including

those who are not spellcasters. To do so, the character must be versed in runic kennings, and must know the runes; such knowledge is exceptionally rare, and should be restricted, at least, initially, to those cultures and societies which would make use of such devices for example, in a default assumption campaign, only dwarves, bards, and barbarians would have the requisite background, though it is not necessarily true such characters actually have the knowledge. If the ability is possessed, the character must draw the rune as before, but must also chant the runes galdr. All such spells have a casting time of ten minutes, and function as per the runes associated meaning, with an effect of the Castle Keepers selection, resolved as if the caster were first level. Spellcasters can augment their spells with runes as often as they have spells to augment them; others may use runes, for non-divinatory purposes, once per week. Note: Use of this ability must be strictly enforced, as it can quickly become unbalanced.
Using FUTHARK Runes for Divination: Runes should be hand-etched onto either Ash or Yew chips, with the ink for the etching drawn from the

runecasters own blood. When a fortune is to be found, three Runes are used, one at a time. They are not to be flipped, or altered in position, as doing so ruins all interpretation. Rune placement is vital to the meaning (also known as kenning). Note: Some Runes do not have an Inversed or Reversed form; however, all Runes can be Obscured. If the Rune is

Upright (that is, in its normal written form), the kenning applies to the immediate event, or is a causal factor for the question at hand; other positions have different kennings, as follows
Upright: The Rune is vertically or horizontally aligned, implying both an immediate effect and meaning.
Inversed/: The Rune is upside down, implying an opposite effect.
Reversed: The Rune is turned, as though reflected in a mirror, implying an absence of the effect.
Angled: The Rune is not straight, either horizontally or vertically, implying a shift in effect; the closer the Rune is to being vertically aligned, the more likely the effect is to be true. The opposite is true the more the Rune leans toward a horizontal lime. Note: Angled also applies to Inverse and Reversed forms, providing a near limitless catalogue of interpretation.
Obscured: The Runes face is hidden, either under another Rune or flipped over, preventing the Rune from being seen. An Obscured Rune is always read last in a Divination, and implies a distant event. Inversed, Reversed, and Angled applies to an Obscured Rune.

The first Rune drawn always pertains to the Question, that is, what issue or matt er is being divined. The Second Rune drawn pertains to the causation, or conflict, leading to the Question. The final Rune indicates relief or requisite action to bring the Question to balance.
Galdr: The magical sound necessary to recite when using a rune for magical purposes. It is not necessary to sing the Galdr when using runes for divination.
Aett Runes are divided into three distinct Aett, each comprised of eight Runes. All Runes in an Aett share some common associative kenning. Note: The associations are, purposefully, left vague and ambiguous. Interpretations, and creativity, are required to add life to

this system, in hopes of emulating the ancient practice itself.

1st Aett: This Aett contains: Fehu, Uruz, Thurisaz, Ansuz, Raido, Kenaz, Gebo, and Wunjo.

Fehu Wealth, Creative Inspiration, Prosperity, Fertility, Luck

Element: Fire

Galdr: FFFFFF

Uruz Strength, Health, Courage/Morale, Healing

Element: Earth

Galdr: UUUUUU

Thurisaz Chaos, Rage, Destruction, Evil, Lightning, Combative Magic, Curses

Element: Fire

Galdr: Thu-Thu-Thu

Ansuz Animation, Intelligence, Animals, Plants, Communication, Order

Element: Air

Galdr: AAAAAA

Raido Movement, Motion, Geas, Atonement, Safety, Break Enchantments

Element: Air

Galdr: RRRRRR

Kenaz Weaponcrafting, Knowledge, True Sight, Detect Lie, Powerful Divination, Magic

Element: Fire

Galdr: Keh-Keh-Keh

Gebo Gift, Contracts, Binding/Enchantment

Element: Air

Galdr: Geh-Geh-Geh

Wunjo Wish, Willpower

Element: Earth

Galdr: WWWWWW

2nd Aett: This Aett contains: Hagalaz, Nauthiz, Isa, Jera, Eiwaz, Pertho, Algiz, and Sowulo.

Hagalaz Weather, Evil Magic, Uncontrolled Nature, Revenge, Summoning, Nightmares, Astral Intrusion

Element: Water

Galdr: HHHHHH

Nauthiz Fire, Remove Disease, Binding, Break Enchantment, Desperation

Element: Fire

Galdr: NNNNNN

Isa Ice, Immobility, Immutability, Magical Defense, Enhance Attributes

Element: Water

Galdr: EEEEEE

Jera Temporality, Haste, Aging, Slow, Reversal, Entropy

Element: Earth

Galdr: YYYYYY

Eiwaz Morale, Knowledge, Wisdom, Universality, Infinity, Creation, Planar Magic

Element: All

Galdr: IIIIII

Pertho Gambling, Luck, Secrets, Regression, Magic (Illusions Especially)

Element: Water

Galdr: Peh-Peh-Peh

Algiz Protection, Divinity

Element: Air

Galdr: ZZZZZZ

Sowulo Light, Sun, Charisma, Enhance Magic, Dispel Magic, Destroy Undead, Healing

Element: Air

Galdr: SSSSSS

3rd Aett: This Aett contains: Teiwaz, Berkana, Ehwaz, Mannaz, Laguz, Inguz, Othila, and Dagaz

Teiwaz War, Justice, Legalities, Authority,

Element: Air

Galdr: Tiw-Tiw-Tiw

Berkana Guardianship, Nurture, Femininity, Nature, Family

Element: Earth

Galdr: BBBBBB

Ehwaz Cooperation, Dependency, Travel, Friendship, Love, Sexuality

Element: Earth

Galdr: EiEiEiEiEiEi

Mannaz Humanity, Intelligence, Creativity

Element: Air

Galdr: MMMMMM

Laguz Water/Ice, Psychic Ability, Reincarnation, Emotion Manipulation

Element: Water

Galdr: LLLLLL

Inguz Masculinity, Conception, Origins, Life Manipulation

Element: Earth

Galdr: IIINNNGGG

Othila Home, Law, Completion, Finality, Unity, Avoid Danger

Element: Earth

Galdr: OOOOOO

Dagaz Temporality, Sun, Drastic Change/Polymorph, Neutrality, Invisibility

Element: Fire/Air

Galdr: Dhaa-Dhaa-Dhaa

Could a Bard's Decipher Script be used to decipher a coded message written in another language?

I have recently introduced a mystery to my players in the form of some letters written to the main villain in their recent "quest". The letters are written in a language that the players aren't able to read and in this other language the letters are written in code.

Thus, a Read Languages skill or spell effect would be able to translate the script, but be unable to provide them with something that they could realistically then decipher, since the words of two different languages aren't always anywhere near one another once translated.

So, can a Bard use Decipher Script to "crack the code?"
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The runic system in HR1 would certainly fit in well with the Skaldic theme of the bards in C&C.

One thing I might recommend is putting the runes into some sort of level-based hierarchy, so it's not just a matter of experience-purchases.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Although I'd just treat it like a scroll reading ability, which i believe bards get?

Yes, bards can read scrolls with their Decipher Script ability. I'd actually be doing something very similar to what you suggest. To use a rune, the bard would need to carve and activate it (which would take 15 + 1d20 turns), requiring an ability check. Bards deciphering arcane scrolls do so at a -10 penalty, plus the level of the spell. I want bards to be better than that at runes, though. (My thinking is that runes are "natural" for the bard, whereas scrolls are not, but the bard still has a chance of figuring out a scroll.)

Since knowledge of a rune is a permanent thing, I need a way to limit the accumulation of such knowledge. That's where the XP cost comes in.

serleran wrote:
Alright. Here you go:

Damn, serleran, you're a machine! Thanks.

Nelzie wrote:
Could a Bard's Decipher Script be used to decipher a coded message written in another language?

I'd give a bard a chance to do this, but it would be extremely difficult.

Incidentally, I wouldn't allow a spell like comprehend languages to do anything with such a document. That spell supplies the meaning, not the transliteration, of another document. A transliteration of the characters that fails to supply a meaning is outside the scope of the spell, IMO.

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
One thing I might recommend is putting the runes into some sort of level-based hierarchy, so it's not just a matter of experience-purchases.

Do you mean that you would give the runes to the bard at certain levels without changing anything else about the class (i.e. for balance)? Or would you give the runes at certain levels, but modify the XP progression?

I'm thinking that an XP cost is an easy solution, because it keeps the power curve of the ability in check without any need to change the bard's XP chart or other abilities. I do think that some runes need to be more expensive than others, though, because some of them are quite powerful. I was also thinking that other PCs could probably "purchase" knowledge of runes, too, but it would be MUCH more expensive. (Again, using Gary's Options & Skills costs as a guideline.)

There should probably be a limit on runes-per-level, too. Maybe something like "maximum # known" of bard's level + Int bonus, or something like that.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I'd give a bard a chance to do this, but it would be extremely difficult.

Incidentally, I wouldn't allow a spell like comprehend languages to do anything with such a document. That spell supplies the meaning, not the transliteration, of another document. A transliteration of the characters that fails to supply a meaning is outside the scope of the spell, IMO.

That's why I have the document made up as it is. I didn't want it to be an easy out for the players.

There actually is one quick way around it, but the players didn't bother playing with the treasure, they just recorded it all and put it away.

They will eventually find out about how to read the coded work and that will create a bit of an adventure for them.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

I've always loved HR1... A few great ideas in this thread. Serl, once again the attention to detail in your material amazes me!

If I were to cut the bards a break with Runes, that could give them a significant new edge all depending how you integrate these into your campaign. An XP cost for gaining the ability to use a rune (such as the Secondary Skill systems) could be a way to balance this out but I would be in favor for these being expensive. Even then, a successful skill check would have to be made to ensure success and maintain game balance.

Just my two coppers.

Moriarty the Red
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Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Yes, bards can read scrolls with their Decipher Script ability. I'd actually be doing something very similar to what you suggest. To use a rune, the bard would need to carve and activate it (which would take 15 + 1d20 turns), requiring an ability check. Bards deciphering arcane scrolls do so at a -10 penalty, plus the level of the spell. I want bards to be better than that at runes, though. (My thinking is that runes are "natural" for the bard, whereas scrolls are not, but the bard still has a chance of figuring out a scroll.)

Since knowledge of a rune is a permanent thing, I need a way to limit the accumulation of such knowledge. That's where the XP cost comes in.

Indeed. Certainly, the rune's dont need to be restricted to the list in the Vikings Handbook. To that effect one could have a 'rune' that duplicates a spell of a given level. The 'cost' could, perhaps, be that required for a given spellcaster at a given level. A 6th level spell, for instance, one could find the cost of that by finding out what level a given caster has access to 6th level spells. And so forth.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I was thinking that you could stick with the XP-purchasing system like CZ1's skill system, but have certain runes only available after certain levels.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Do you mean that you would give the runes to the bard at certain levels without changing anything else about the class (i.e. for balance)? Or would you give the runes at certain levels, but modify the XP progression?

When I made up the Runemark for my C&C game I kept the spell list of the wizard available. I would have liked to make up a specific spell list to add to the flavor, but I am relying on the 3E Runemark spells added to teh list from "Winer Runes" to do enough of that for me.

So the biggest "flavor" aspect I have is how they go about casting runes and making magic items. Plus I also have the runes based on the words of creation and destruction of Erde. So because of this, they are also a divine spellcaster, not because they pray, but because they are messing with the very powers used to create Erde, Inzae, and all the creatures that live on them. The "ultimate" divine source, if you will.

As for "spell casting" runes, the rune stones for daily spellcasting are kind of like one charge wand items. They go through an "empowement" ritual with the runestones of the spells they want to be able to tap into. These stones stay empowered until the Runemark discharges the stored energy. IE they cast the spell.

These runestones are re-usable unless the spell specifically states it consumes the material component. However I have ended up allowing the Runemark to also hold such "consumable" compnents in their hand with the rune stone, so the stone does not get consumed.

Being a Runemark is kind of expensive and time consuming. The wstones themselves have a base cost (as raw material) of 5 GP per level. Double for damaging and summoning spells, unless the Runemark chooses to make them required to have the components a normal wizard would use for such spells.

Any self respecting Runemark will usually make sure they don't need such components, though.

Intially making these runestones is like making a spell book, except it tkes only one runestone/spells. Plus they have to make a check to make sure they made the rune absolutley perfect (TN12, CL is level of the spell, WIS base class skill).

If they fail the check then they made a flaw and it won't work. So they have to make a new one from totally new materials.

When they make magic items is when the really shine. When "empowering an item" they do it much the same as a wizard, except it alwys has runes and is made of very durable materials, such as stone or steal, or contained in such when a potion/power/etc...

Theri biggest gimmick is how much they can empower something. I now use 3E metamagic feats for this as my guidelines. They can increase the power of the spells inside, and not increase the cost of making it. They are allowed one such empowerment per 3 caster levels per given item.

Plus Runemarks cannot cast curative spells, but they do have the formulae to make healing potions up to, and including heal.

Let me know if you'd like to see the other rune system I developed. Posting it is very difficult to do due to its formatting.