Troll Lord Games

As I mentioned in Treebore's C&C Star Wars thread, I've been thinking of taking the Vitality and Wound point rules I converted from SW to D&D (before the UA came out) and converting them to C&C. I took a bit of time to look things over and here's what I've come up with so far.

Let me know what you think.
Vitality & Wounds for Characters:

This is very simple. A character has a number of wound points equal to their Constitution score. Thus, a character with 16 Con has 16 Wound Points. Vitality is determined the same way standard hit points are, using the same hit die for each class as for hit points. Consitution bonus to hit points is applied to vitality. If the character with 16 Con was a 3rd level fighter, they would roll 3d10 for their vitality, then add 2 for each level due to their Constitution bonus.
Vitality & Wounds for Creatures:

This is determined differently than for characters.

1) Determine the creature's Potential Wound Point score. A creature is considered to have a potential wound point score equal to 10 + their hit dice. Therefore, a goblin has 11 potential Wound Points, an ogre has 14 potential Wound Points, and an ancient red dragon has 44 potential Wound Points.

2) Roll the creature's total hit points, using the standard hit dice from M&T. Modify the hit die type for humanoids as follows: tiny d4, small d6, medium d8, large(up to 15') d10, large(15+') d12. Therefore an elf, human or dwarf has d8 hit die, a goblin has d6 hit die, and ogre has d10 hit die and a storm giant has d12 hit die.

3) Subtract the creature's potential wound point score from the number of hit points rolled. If the result is positive, that result is the number of vitality points the creature has, and it has its full potential wound point score. If the result is zero, or negative, the number of hit points rolled is the number of wound points the creature has, and they have no vitality points.

Thus, a goblin, with 1d6 hit points, can never exceed their potential wound point score of 11, so whatever they roll (1-6) is their Wound Point score. For an ogre, with 4d10 hit points, 29hp are rolled. Subtracting their potential wound points, 14, gives them 15 Vitality and 14 wound points. An ancient red dragon has 34d12 hit points, thus a maximum of 408hp, so it would have a maximum of 364 Vitality and 44 Wound Points. If you made the exceptional roll of all 1's on the dragon's hit dice, the dragon would have no vitality points, and only 34 of their potential 44, making it either an exceptionally feeble ancient dragon, or one recovering from a recent battle.

4) Exceptions:

Undead and Constructs are not truly alive, thus they have no Con score. Since they are held together by arcane or divine forces, or by shear force of will, these creatures possess no wound points. Their hit dice are rolled normally and all points are considered vitality points.
Why and how Vitality and Wounds matter:

Vitality represents both a character's energy level, and their melee skill... their ability to turn a potentially life threatening attack into a glancing blow or a minor cut. A character taking vitality damage may be cut, bruised and winded, but these are very minor effects that can be recovered from easily. Any normal damage the character suffers is first applied to Vitality, and once a character's vitality is reduced to zero, any further damage is applied to their Wound points.

Wound points represent how much physical punishment a character can take. Any wound point damage denotes actual life-threatening wounds. When a character reaches 0 Wound points they are dead.

Critical hits and some other forms of damage, such as from poison and disease, bypass any vitality the character has, and the damage is applied directly to wound points. So, it is conceivable that by a very good, or very lucky hit, or from being poisoned, a creature or character might be reduced to zero wound points while still having all their vitality points.

Critical stats for weapons will be similar to those of 3.5e D&D. Each weapon has a threat range and a critical modifier. If a hit is scored where the base die roll falls within the threat range of the weapon, another attack roll is made. If the second attack roll hits, the hit is a critical. If the second attack roll misses, the hit is normal. Most weapons have a threat range of 20 and a critical modifier of x1, however some have greater threat ranges and some have higher critical modifiers (but none will have both).

Critical stats:

19-20/x1 ... dagger, knife, cleaver, katar, longsword, shortsword, hook sword, nine-ring broadsword, bastard sword, broadsword, flamberge, two-handed swords, all crossbows.

18-20/x1 ... scimitar, falchion, rapier, great scimitar

20/x2 ... all axes, all bows

20/x3 ... scythe, sickle

20/x1 ... all others
Recovery

Natural healing: Per day of rest, Characters naturally recover 1 wound point and a number of vitality points equal to their level. A successful Con check vs a CL of the amount of vitality damage sustained can recover twice their level in one day.

Magical healing: When using magical healing spells, the cleric must choose if they are healing wounds or vitality. If they chose to use their spell to heal vitality, they roll the dice as shown in the spell description. If they choose to heal wounds, the die type is reduced to d4 from d8. Thus, Cure Light Wounds heals either 1d8 Vitality or 1d4 Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds heals 3d8 Vitality or 3d4 Wounds, Healing Circle cures either 2d8 Vitality or 2d4 Wounds to everyone affected. The cleric can only choose one or the other, and everyone receives the same type of healing. Cure Critical Wounds heals 5d8 Vitality or 5d4 Wounds, Heal cures all Vitality and Wound points a character has suffered. Raise Dead gives the character one wound point back, and no vitality. They must rest to recover. Resurrection restores all a character's vitality and wound points.
Combat Example

Our 3th level fighter with 16 Con has 27 Vitality and 16 Wound Points (we'll give him a 16 str too). He is armed with a longsword and enters combat against an ogre with 19 Vitality and 14 Wound points. Longswords do 1d8 damage, and have a critical of 19-20/x1. The ogre is using his slam attack, doing d10 damage and having a critical of 20/x1.

The first round, the figher wins initiative and swings, rolling a 15 +3 BtH +2 str = 20. A hit! He rolls 7 +2 str = 9 damage, which is subtracted from the ogre's vitality. He just barely avoided the full-brunt of the attack and comes away with a small gash on his arm. The ogre counterattacks, rolling a 13, missing. At the end of the round, the fighter still has 27 Vitality and 16 wounds, and the ogre is down to 10 Vitality, but he still has full Wound points.

Second round, the fighter wins initiative again, rolling a 17 +3 BtH +2 str = 22. Another good hit, but not good enough to get a critical. He does 2 +2 str = 4 points damage to the ogre's vitality. The ogre counterattacks again this time rolling a 16, matching the fighter's AC, and a 9 is rolled for damage. Since it is vitality damage, the fighter has rolled with the punch, turning it into a glancing blow, but it took a lot out of him and he'll definitely have a bruise there later. At the end of this round, the fighter is down to 18 Vitality and 16 Wound points, and the ogre is at 6 Vitality and 14 Wound points.

Third round the fighter wins initiative again, but misses with his swing. The ogre rolls a 20 and gets a threat. His second roll is a 16, matching the fighter's AC and thus scoring a critical hit! The ogre slams the fighter for 5 Wound points damage and the crunch of bone is heard from the fighter's rib cage! At the end of this round, the fighter is at 18 Vitality and 11 Wound points, and the ogre remains at 6 Vitality and 14 Wound points.

Fourth round, the ogre wins initiative and attacks, rolling an 18. Another glancing blow for the fighter doing 10 points damage. That took a lot of wind out of the warrior. He swings his sword, rolling a 14 +3 BtH +2 str = 19, delivering a small 1 vitality nick to the ogre's hide. The fighter has 8 Vitality and 11 Wound points left, and the ogre has 5 Vitality and 14 Wound points.

Round five, the fighter wins initiative and rolls an 11 +3 BtH +2 str = 16, and 7 +2 str = 9 pts damage. This brings the ogre's vitality down to zero, and the remaining 4 points are scored against the ogre's wound points. The ogre is just too exhausted from fighting to be able to defend himself properly from lethal blows. The ogre rolls a 17 on his attack, hitting and doing 3 points vitality damage. The fighter now has 5 vitality and 11 wound points, and the ogre has zero vitality and 10 wound points.

Round six, the ogre wins initiative and throws a desperate swing at the fighter, but misses. The fighter rolls a 19, scoring a threat. His second attack roll is a 12 +3 BtH +2 str = 17 total, which beats the ogre's AC and scores a critical. The fighter rolls an 8 +2 str = 10. Since the ogre has no vitality left, the damage is still just scored to wounds, which brings the ogre's wound points down to zero. The ogre falls to the ground, dead from his wounds.
Optional rules

Creature Con bonus: You may apply Con bonuses to Vitality for creatures, based on their potential wound point score... which can be taken as their Con score... thus, the ogre that had rolled a total of 29 hit points (thus 15 Vitality and 14 Wound Points) would have an extra 4 Vitality due to their Con of 14, bringing their total to 19 Vitality and 14 Wound Points.

Critical modifiers: If a character or creature's vitality points are reduced to zero and a critical hit is scored on them, the critical multiplier goes up by one. Thus, a critical hit with a longsword (normally crit 19-20/x1) against a creature that only has wound points left would give a critical multiplier of x2. A battleaxe, with crit 20/x2, would go up to 20/x3 against an opponent with no vitality.

Interconnected Vitality and Wounds: Wound points are actually the character or creature's Constitution score. If they take damage that reduces their Wounds/Con down so their Con bonus drops, they lose the amount off of their Vitality. Thus, if their Wound points drop from 16 to 13, their Con bonus drops from +2, to +1, and thus they lose 1 vitality point per level from their maximum vitality. They cannot heal this extra vitality back until those wound points are healed.

Wow, people really like throwing that link at me when I post my version of these rules anywhere.
Thanks for trying to help, but I'm completely aware of the existance of those rules. I made my conversion from SW -> D&D a couple of years before the UA was published, and I like the way I did it better than the UA version.

Anyone else have any comments?

Well, not really sure what "UA" is personally. Don't really care much either, since I'm not much of a 3rd Ed monkey. As for "throwing the link" at you... relax. When possible, I like to link to things that I think might help other folks. Just because you don't find it useful doesn't mean someone else won't.

If I'm not the first person to put that link up, perhaps you might consider saying why you've chosen to go with a SW conversion instead of the SRD conversion.

As for comments... what are you looking for? Since you don't seem to be interested in people pointing out systems that seem to do something similar, what do you want people to say? Are you trying to make combat go a particular direction? Why? Does complicating combat in this fashion really pay off in a meaningful fashion? What makes your approach more than just a 3rd Ed conversion of the S.D.C. and Hit Point system Palladium uses for example? Are you just looking to see if other folks have done something similar and what their results were?

Sorry. You posting only the link and saying nothing else made your post seem rather dismissive. I've had people do that to me before in a rather "yeah, whatever" way, so I apologize for getting defensive.

I didn't say I wasn't interested in other systems that do similar things... I was just reacting to someone posting only a link. It's hard to gauge intent when I'm given no other information.

Anyways, yes, if people look at the SRD version and say "Oh, in that version, they say that creatures without a Con score only have Wounds, whereas you say they only have Vitality, why is that?" or "Why did you preserve critical multipliers when the UA version did away with that?" or whatever, yeah, that's fine. I'm perfectly willing to discuss such things. Again, I wasn't given any more information to work off of, so it was hard to gauge how I was supposed to react to the information you provided. *shrug*

I think what I'm really looking for is if people think this will work for C&C. Yes, it's complicated, and C&C is about simplicity, but the V&W system creates a slightly more cinemagraphic system, and it's not so complicated in practice.

I'm also looking for suggestions. "Oh, maybe if you do instead. Would that work?"

Oh, and the SRD version was published in the Unearthed Arcana (UA).

I'm not entirely sure the point for such a system, as it adds a whole level of additional numbers to track, plus the required set-up to calculate each vitality/wound numbers for every foe is needed, making prep time much longer. One grey area I see lies in healing potions, as I'm assuming the drinking character would have to choose one or the other (what if the character is simply unconscious, say at 0 vitality but >0 wounds?).

As for the cinematic "feel," I wholly disagree. Any attack that deals considerable damage can be thusly described without the need for an additional layer of "damage." For example, if my ranger hits an orc for 17 damage (which he does quite often, by the way) I just describe the hit as being an especially devastating blow, cleaving the poor orc in twain. In fact, it is my preference that all attacks are described rather than a "I hit" though in practice that tends to be what happens...

Are there tangible benefits? Perhaps in a world where magic did not exist and weapons could ignore "vitality" then I could think of such a thing being possible. What I mean... are there penalties for losing X vitality or wounds? Some kind of permanent scarring or somesuch that occurs? Broken bone rules? Severed limbs? Something that would mandate the "cinematic nature" proposed?

If not... honestly, it seems like an overly complex HP system. However, it might work for a gritty system, but, in such settings I think it would just be easier to restrict healing, rather than implement a wholesale change to damage.

One school of thought is that this system explicitly differentiates between the character's or creature's actual physical health and their combat experience... the thought being that hit points represent something of a sliding scale... the character isn't actually getting physically tougher, but instead is learning more about how to get out of the way of a hit. So, a hit by a longsword doesn't matter as much to a higher level character because they get out of the way of the hit more than a less experienced character does. Hit points are ambiguous about where the character's skill and the character's actual physical body are separated, but V&W are more explicit about it. The differentiation isn't necessary, but I find it interesting.

Oh, healing potions I would have work either one of two ways... either it heals one or the other, no choice... if you have wound point damage, it heals that first, with any excess being lost. Healing Vitality after that would need another potion. OR, it heals wound points first, then the excess is applied to vitality at a 2:1 ratio. I lean heavier towards the former method.

I did forget to put in the penalties for taking wound damage... penalties to your actions... inability to charge or run... Con save or you fall unconscious. Taking vitality damage is nothing... as it says, they're just bumps and bruises and small cuts. Taking wounds is much more serious. I don't like critical hit tables that scar and break bones and the like, imposing some temporary penalty is better, imo. If you take enough wound damage and it's healed naturally rather than by magical healing, then scarring could occur, I'd say.

As far as extra work, I don't see computing creature V&W to be all that difficult, though. It's really only one extra simple step to determine how much of their hit points are vitality and how much are wounds. More work than hit points, but not by much.

I see Scurvy's point about the Palladium system. I saw the likeness between the two systems back when I first got the SW game. One thing, though, I really dislike the SDC system that Palladium introduced. They give the character their Physical Endurance (Con) as their starting hit point value, then you get a d6 hit points added per level, AND you get this separate SDC value on top of that (which stands for Structural Damage Capacity). They originally introduced that value as something for armor to have... your armor could take a certain amount of damage to its SDC value before it became useless, and you could spend cash to repair it. But making SDC like Vitality... to denote a character's "energy level"... to denote fatigue, basically, is silly. Come up with a different name, at least, if you're going to do that... but basically you're doubling a character's total hit points doing that. I never thought that was necessary for the game. *shrug* The Vitality/Wound system does add quite a bit to a low level character's total hit points, but it doesn't overall double them like Palladium ended up doing.

Anyways, there were ways I was thinking of making the system much simpler for C&C, but keeping the same kind of differentiation... and drawing a bit on the Palladium system... the *base* Palladium system.

Give the characters their Con as base hit points, then their hit die from class after that. The hit die is your ability to avoid the worst effects (vitality), and your Con is your actual physical body (wounds). They are considered to be the same thing (Hit Points). However, if you actually fall so low as to dip into the hit points from Constitution, you have the chance to fall unconscious for a short time, and also suffer penalties to your attacks and such.

Ehn... no, this system isn't necessary at all. It worked pretty good for D&D, and did make for a grittier game, but it was also a lot more forgiving in ways. Vitality is recovered a LOT faster than hit points (1 point per level per hour of rest). I've found that vitality makes an interesting spellpoint system, since I was using that for a Dragonlance game, to show how wizards get weaker as they cast spells.

For C&C I really don't see using this, since it really doesn't do anything different than "normal" HP. Now if I skipped over the effects of losing vitality, IE the fatigue penalties, then I can see a reason for doing it. I saw you mention such penalites but I didn't catch you detaiing them in your posts.

There are a lot of good reasons to have such a system. The levels of fatigue are "realistic", and if the DM/CK keeps the players in the dark about how many HP's they have, the fatigue penalties give them a very good indication of how hurt they are.

I do agree that it would work great for a spellcaster points system. I was sitting there thinking about that while playing my sons SW game.

but like you mentioned, it gets to far into the realm of "complicated" for me to think the pay off is worth it.

I think I would just go with a more general system. Something like 4 stages of "combat fatigue". Maybe -1 to hit per category, then maybe cut movement to half as well in the "final" category.

Of course the biggest problem is this system really messes up low level characters. So you may want to say the system doesn't go into effect until 5th level. Still can kill them if you don't get good into taking fatigue effect into account when building/making the encounter.

So if I were to use a system for C&C I wouldn't want to get any more detailed than that.

Yeah, there are effects, but not for losing Vitality. When you lose Wound points, either from a critical hit or after your Vitality has been exhausted and you take further damage, you have a -2 penalty to all your actions, you cannot run or charge, and you have to make a Con check with a CL based on how many wound points damage you took, or you fall unconscious for a short bit.

Hmm... the only way I see the system messing up low level characters is that they can typically have more Wound points than vitality points. That really doesn't make them any worse off than a standard C&C character, does it? Using hit points, the character is unconscious and mortally wounded when at -1 to -6 hp, but with V&W, technically you're just in the top range of your wound points there. Still active (unless you failed your Con check to stay conscious), but hurting. Granted, you don't get to go into negative wound points... however when I originally converted the system I did include negative wound points. I just decided not to use them in this version.

This also gives a greater "buffer" to death for some. Rather than going to 0 hp and then only having until -10 until you're dead, instead you have your Con value as that buffer, which can be up to 18 points, instead of just 10.

OH, one other thing... in the D&D version of these rules, vitality is recovered at 1 pt per level, per hour of rest... with a full night's rest giving a character all their vitality back (but only 1 wound point). I altered that for this version, mostly on a whim, since hit point recovery in C&C is slower, compared to 3e.

Btw, noone has pointed it out yet, but there is a "disparity" between characters and creatures. The SRD version that Scurvy pointed to gives all creatures the same benefit as the PCs... they get their Con in wound points and you roll their standard hit dice as Vitality. I didn't like the idea of goblins and kobolds suddenly shooting up in hit points like that... going from an average of 5 to having 11 Wound points and 5 Vitality. I wanted them to stay weaker, so I came up with rolling their standard hit points, subtracting their Con (or "potential wound points" in this case), and then seeing if they had anything left over that would be their vitality score. It makes characters stronger to start, since they end up having more hit points than the creatures, by comparison. It gives the characters a little more survivability, especially considering that a high level character is still in a lot of danger from being brought down by the lucky shot of a low level character or creature.

I created an ultra-simplified V&W point system.

Vitality is hit points, while Wound points are determined as follows:

- For statted characters, it is equal to Con.

- For creatures with HD, it is 5+HD for Small, 10+HD for Medium creatures, 15 (or more)+HD for Large creatures.

Wound points are inflicted on critical hits (a natural roll)

The damage is multiplied by a critical multiplier, depending on the base rolled die:

up to 1d6 X2

up to 1d10 X3

up to 1d12 X4

Creatures natural weapons always inflict X2, Large ones inflict X4

It is fast, brutal and quite effective.

Cheers,

Antonio

That's cool, Antonio. Written out a lot shorter than mine, but with similar ideas. I like how you did wound points for creatures, with the different base for each size. I think that would definitely solve the problem I had with not liking "fodder" races suddenly going up quite a bit in overall "hit points".

How do you handle healing (natural and magical)? And criticals (threats and multipliers, or something else)? Are there penalties for taking wound points? Do you go into negative wound points, or is 0 unconscious and below that dead? For wound points inflicted on criticals... is that the only way they're inflicted, or do you take wounds after vitality is exhausted?

Oh, you edited with an answer to the second question there. heh. By a "natural roll" I assume you mean rolling a natural 20?

Also, it would seem that criticals in your game are are quite brutal. 1d8x3 for a longsword critical to someone's wound points is pretty nasty, with an instant kill of anyone with a 13 Con or lower (on average). And they happen quite often, comparitively, too... 1 in 20, rather than 1 in ~300 for the threat/crit system.

I like keeping distinctions between axes and swords, crossbows and bows, though... with swords and crossbows getting crits more often, but with less overall damage, and axes and bows getting less frequent crits, but more overall damage potential.

Veritas wrote:
That's cool, Antonio. Written out a lot shorter than mine, but with similar ideas. I like how you did wound points for creatures, with the different base for each size. I think that would definitely solve the problem I had with not liking "fodder" races suddenly going up quite a bit in overall "hit points".

How do you handle healing (natural and magical)? And criticals (threats and multipliers, or something else)? Are there penalties for taking wound points? Do you go into negative wound points, or is 0 unconscious and below that dead? For wound points inflicted on criticals... is that the only way they're inflicted, or do you take wounds after vitality is exhausted?

Oh, you edited with an answer to the second question there. heh. By a "natural roll" I assume you mean rolling a natural 20?

Also, it would seem that criticals in your game are are quite brutal. 1d8x3 for a longsword critical to someone's wound points is pretty nasty, with an instant kill of anyone with a 13 Con or lower (on average). And they happen quite often, comparitively, too... 1 in 20, rather than 1 in ~300 for the threat/crit system.

I like keeping distinctions between axes and swords, crossbows and bows, though... with swords and crossbows getting crits more often, but with less overall damage, and axes and bows getting less frequent crits, but more overall damage potential.

Thanks!

Going into the details:

1) Vitality is always healed before Wounds, and the usual rules for recovery apply for Vitality. Wound points are treated as negative hit points, so it takes very long to heal them. Also, healing spells work on wound points only on the basis of one type of spell per day. So, at most one cure light wounds, one cure serious wounds etc. per day will give benefit

2) Wound 0 is dead dead dead!

3) After vitality is exhausted, Wound points are assessed. I do not like to keep track levels of damage, so a flat -2 bonus is applied to all checks when one is losing Wound points.

4) A critic is only on a natural roll of 20 THAT HITS (since in C&C a natural 20 is not an automatic hit).

That's all!

Fast. And brutal, as you argue. Obviously, this kind of game is not appropriate for all campaigns.

I must say, however, that although I used them, I am not a fan of V&W systems. I prefer using the normal hit points mechanics, and introducing critics (with the system as above). This does not alter the basic mechanics of the game, but adds a layer of grittiness which is good for some settings.

Another good way I found of dealing with critics is damage-based (this system works best in setting were damaging spells are nonexistent).

Basically, every time a creature is hit, if the hit is greater than a shock threshold, the creature starts losing 1 hit point per round.

The shock thresholds are:

- For statted characters, half con

- For monsters, 5+HD for small and medium creatures; 10 (or more)+HD for large creatures.

Oh, I forgot. In all the above systems, constructs, undead, oozes, elementals are not affected by criticals.

Cheers,

Antonio

Please don't think I'm being adversarial, as I'm not trying to be...

The system that rabindranath72 laid out is about what I was thinking of doing as well for my C&C powered Palladium game, assuming I don't just go the Mook/Faceless Hordes route. One thing to at least think about though, is do you really need such a system? I mean, on the one hand you say you want something more cinematic, but then you say it makes for more "gritty" combat, and then you talk about it powering a spell system... you seem to kinda be bouncing around a bit here with your goals.

When most people talk about "gritty" combat, I hear them talking about easy death. A world where a character is just another slob trying desperately to survive in a world that doesn't care. Introducing a mechanic that just inflates the hit points seems counter to that. If you want "gritty" combat the way most people use the term, you'd be better served using something like roll whatever die is rolled for Hit Points for first level, and then after that characters only get their Con bonus as additional Hit Points each level. Or they get the same Hit Point increase as they get for BaB. Something along those lines.

If you want more cinematic, you do have a few different approaches. You can do something like rabindranath72 has, or you can try doing something along the lines of a Mook /faceless Hordes rule. The advantage to a Mook style rule is you don't have to invent as complicated a hit point system. You keep the hit point system the way it is, and then use whatever you want for mooks/hordes. Burning Shaolin (A Feng Shui/d20 dual stat adventure) has a pretty simple way of doing mooks that's Open Game Content. When I get home tonight, I can post it if folks are interested. Using a mook system allows for just about anything to be a fodder. I have to admit to not being overly fond of the whole kobolds/goblins are a fodder race just for killing, and orcs are a tougher version of a fodder race.

In other words, doing mook fights allows for players to feel that their characters are awesome (or at least competent), allows for a variety of things to be used as fodder, allows for combats to be run faster (since the mooks are designed to be mowed down, and you don't have inflated hit points keeping battles running longer), and doesn't introduce a more complicated subsystem of combat that players have to worry about.

And instead of trying to figure XP for each member of the faceless horde... you just assign the horde an overall XP value. Individually, the members of the horde are chump-change. They're only their to make the PCs look good, which is really the same point of using a fodder race.

If you're looking to have magic powered by this kind of a system, why not just use one of the magic point based systems floating around, and/or introduce a mechanic for casters being able to do more with magic at a hit point cost. Or there's a couple of options for threshold casting where the more spells a caster has cast, the more likely they are to fail. Failure results in a backlash which can be physical damage.

Obviously, a fair amount of this depends on the kind of game you want to run. A fair number of people on the boards seem to favor "more realistic" or "brutal" combat, and tend to go for older D&D ways of handling combat. Personally, I'm a fan of the more cinematic/over the top approach to things. I don't like "zero to hero" which is what most people seem to play.

The hit point system as is, does a decent enough job for gritty combat although you can make it even more lethal (assuming you're going for a Warhammeresque level of value for life) if you want. An inflated hit point system like you're thinking of works well enough if you're really married to the idea of "zero to hero" playing, but want to cheat in favor of the PCs. A mook style system (with or without an inflated hit point system) is going to be better at doing rapid and cinematic style combats, while still allowing for nasty fights when you get to more important parts of the story.

Then again, I know I'm in the minority on the boards here for the style of play that I like(at least out of folks that post), so none of the above may be useful to folks.

Scurvy_Platypus wrote:
Please don't think I'm being adversarial, as I'm not trying to be...

ok.

Quote:
One thing to at least think about though, is do you really need such a system?

Actually, I stated above that this system isn't really necessary... really, no house rules/rule variants are necessary. The C&C system works fine just the way it is. Sometimes it's just nice to try new ways of doing things, just to see if they work.

Quote:
I mean, on the one hand you say you want something more cinematic, but then you say it makes for more "gritty" combat, and then you talk about it powering a spell system... you seem to kinda be bouncing around a bit here with your goals.

Why can't it be all three things at once? It doesn't have to have one specific goal and that's it.... does it? I don't think so, but maybe you differ. Let's take the origin of the system... Star Wars. It was introduced there so that the heroes and major villains had the benefit of vitality, but lowly stormtroopers only had wounds and would go down pretty quickly when the blasters shots started flying. That's part of the cinematic idea I was thinking about... not having the heroes have to hack away at the minions forever, but maybe I was using the wrong word there, since it seems cinematic is used for more of a "descriptive" combat? Anyways, the system can be seen as pretty gritty as well, since one well-placed hit can take out a PC as well, no matter what their level. It also powers the Force abilities in the game, which is where I originally got the idea for spellpoints, thus branched the V&W system out from there. Given that it was for a Dragonlance Chronicles game, I wanted the players to be afforded a little extra survivability, but with the fear still there of taking a critical at the wrong time, while providing a spellpoint system that would mimic how Dragonlance Wizards get weaker as they cast their spells. It worked pretty well, too.

Yes, this system does give more hit points, but as I said above, it is also grittier at the same time since one well-placed critical can be devastating and can possibly take a character out of the combat even if they were at full health just a moment ago.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "zero to hero"... I haven't really encountered this in my own games... 1st level characters aren't advancing to great heroism after a short time or taking down creatures they really shouldn't be able to... the system does favor the PCs for total "hit points", but the extra wound points may help them at one point, and then be their bane the next when they take a bad critical.

Also, I'd lean rabindranath72's system more onto the side of gritty than cinematic. Even he puts it squarely in that category.

Your emphasis throught your posts seems to be "why don't you just use , which has already been made for you?" Maybe your original post of the link to the SRD wasn't, but it seems to fall in line with several of your suggestions above... I just like to create things on my own... create or convert... to my own tastes. Other people have their ideas of what's a good way to do things... I have mine. I don't state that mine are better, just that I like them better.

Your mileage definitely varies, but that's cool. I'm not saying anyone has to like the system, and I've never forced it onto my players. I just like coming up with interesting mechanics.

In a way I guess I kind of do use woundpoints. I let the PC's go to (-) their CON beofre dying. But they go unconcious at 0, unless a Barbarian type ability or spell is in effect.

If I were to use V&W it would probably be if I wanted to add Wuxia elements for every class, such as the fighter stuff in book of 9 swords.

Other than that, the HP system as is does not perfection make. The ease of use makes it worth while to me, over the little extra book keeping V&W adds.

So its cool, and works for something like Star Wars and using the Force, but for my general all-purpose game system, I'll stay old fashioned. When I want more I pull out L5R, Star Wars, or Shadowrun and play them until the extra details outweigh the fun. (IE I get tired of it)

I try not to add more complexity to my C&C game, since I think it's the simplicity of the game that makes it so wonderful to begin with. With that in mind, I wouldnt bother using a system like this or like the one in UA in C&C, though I did use it in my D20 modern games, SWD20 games, and in at least one of my D&D campaigns.

One nice advantage to a "wound" system is the rendering of healing magic as somethingmuch more demanding, or rather... more necessary. One thing I liked about Alternity was that it used something akin to this, and the lack of easy healing really showcased the possible "grittiness" of the system, making anything that did actual real damage (wounds, and not just hit point loss) devastating to the character. Such things are nice, for specific styles of gaming.