Troll Lord Games

What is the EV of coins in C&C?

Did I miss the "official" suggestion in the PHB or is it just by DM fiat?

I do not believe there is a precise definition, but many small objects have a * listed for their EV meaning they have no defined EV unless 10 or more are carried and then they are 1 EV per 10. So, 100 gp would have an EV of 10 if this option were used. Obviously, it makes gems and jewels far more useful... and, bags of money are ungodly bulky.

But, that's just one way it has been approached.

Me, I would probably base on the size of the coin. For example, I might have the conversion rate indicate the EV, at a 10:1, so 100 cp = 1 EV.
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Serl's Corner

ok, just didn't wanna make/alter a rule unless I had to just to make things simpler/less houserules to remember.

If its DM fiat then I'll probably say a flat 100:1 for all coins seems simple and right for me. 50 coins, bout the same as a dagger or dirk seems fair enough to me.

(Confession: I'm at home for lunch and I just counted out a test between 50 and 100 random coins and a carving knife. 100ish seems slightly generous but fair enough).

Yeah...I've been using 50 coins for 1 EV myself.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

I assume 100 coins when I have to worry about it, but I also have all my coins be the size of a dime, none of that crazy Florins stuff in my world!
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Coins are said in the PHB to weigh an ounce (or 437.5 grains), which is the same as in the Castle Zagyg campaign setting.
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Technically, I did add 50 coins to 1 EV in the last Errata Update.
Encumberance Errata

But I resisted it for so long (because I'd rather it be more of a fiat thing), I did it solely to do an end run around such questions in the future.
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Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

So 1 EV of coins weighs 3 lbs., 2 oz. This means a large sack can hold 30 lbs. (31 lbs., 4 oz. to be precise) and a small sack 18 lbs. (18 lbs., 12 oz. to be precise).

A lot more realistic sounding than what I came up with using the information in the book. Now if we could get the two-handed sword on a diet to shave 10 lbs. off its weight that would be nice. Battle ready two-handed swords weigh about 5 lbs. The wall hanger swords, like my claymore, weigh quite a bit more (10 lbs. or more) because they're not intended for battle, but decorative use.

Even the larger greatswords didn't weigh much over 6 lbs. So...methinks a minor update to the weights is in order.
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Really???

Really? You guys include money into encumbrance?
The whole reason why I play fantasy games is so I can check out from balancing the checkbook, paying the bills, and worring about the economy, and (Hopefully) relax and have fun once in a while.

When the real world grind moves into my fantasy I tend to get a bit miffed.

If I wanted to spend time weighing everything I own and balancing my budget I would just stay home.

If GMs want realism, gritty details, and balanced budgets, birthdays and encumbrance weighed to the gnats booty, that is fine as long as the group as a whole also enjoy such gritty details.

Add all the crunchy details you want as a GM, but don't ask the players to track the date for you, spend time balancing a ledger, or weighing every dollar they own unless they too are into "that sort of game" your only adding additional recordkeeping and making the game a DRAG when you force others to abide.

Then again, if you have a player that enjoys tracking every piece of supply for their stronghold, and like planning the changing of the guard, then go for it! just don't expect everyone to call that "fun".

Me I prefer stuff like nemesis enemies, epic badguys, immersive roleplay, dungeons, dragons, wenches, and warriors. But thats just me...
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'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

Yeah its pretty much a YMMV scenario.

My group likes thaat, so long as there is versimilitude they are happy. It isn't hard and doesn't slow things down to have a PC find a bunch of coins and say

"Hmmm, hundreds of coins, I've got a full pack and that goblin almost chased me down last time, if I grab them maybe I have to leave something behind?" I DO like gritty mud crawls and PC's left with choices to make because of pesky "real world" details like that. Thousands don't however, I understand. But tracking EV of coins doesn't preclude nemesis, story arcs, epic whatsits etc at all either.

It is KIND of realistic, pirates were always burying treasure and who and why do you think left those treasure hoards you are robbing and why? 'Cos they didn't want the encumbrance either!

I have actually had some classic moments of PC's desperately trying to outrun a troll, trying to figure out of they should jettison their pack? sword and shield? or treasure sack? It was hilarious and each PC chose a different strategy, it was actually a chance for PC personality to shine out and hilariously funny. Sometimes those gritty details make the game for me.

Good point...gritty for plot device is cool.

But if the treasure is buried how can I use it to woo the tavern girls?

I'm just a lazy player. I am the type that likes to swing from chandeliers, and jump from buiding windows at a seconds impulse.

I do it to keep the action moving forward.

Asking me my encumbrance, or if I drop my backpack only slows me down.

I consider it my calling in life to resist anything resembling more bookeeping.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

Now you see the allure of the Bag of Holding!
As DM i was always too lazy to deal with the weight of gps until there was a roomfull to deal with

When neccessary, I do a simple 100/1 thing. 100 coins equals 1 EV. Of course, going by the new rules in the 4th printing of the PHB, if you put those coins in a load bearing container (backpack, pouch, etc.), the EV of the coins is divided by two.

My campaign coinage is also like Treebore's. Most coins are nickel or dime-sized. If you look at many of the most common Roman coins, they were not very big. 100 to 1 seems fair and at best it's easy.

~O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I am all for easy! I think I will use the 100 = 1 EV as well.
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I had one pair of old ladies count out two hundred pennies for my tip one time while I was driving Domino's. I swear that they weighed almost two pounds.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Aladar wrote:
I am all for easy! I think I will use the 100 = 1 EV as well.

I didn't go for easy, as my house rules can demonstrate. But in short, I went with 50cp, 30sp, and 15gp to the pound. 50 coins per EV is a nice round number, and it does work to solve the issue of the EV of coins as well as agree with the RAW which specifies that coins weigh 1 oz. His system can work, if the books themselves consistently used the system, which they don't.
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Traveller wrote:
Even the larger greatswords didn't weigh much over 6 lbs. So...methinks a minor update to the weights is in order.

Well, you'll be happy to know that I didn't use the book weights for weapons to determine the EV... in fact, the wild variance in listed weights is why I wanted to go with the EV system... we don't have to care that the sword should only be 6 lbs, because it's EV is 3 because it's not the easiest thing to carry outside of in your hand or in a scabbard.
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Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

Yes, but as I've made clear on more than one occasion, I do not like the EV system at all because it's TOO abstract. It doesn't help that the Trolls do not use it consistently throughout the books.

I'll stick with using pounds as a unit of encumbrance.
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I guess you just lose me on the "abstract" thing... it's pretty well laid out how the numbers were generated in the Ad Hoc section, so it's not like you couldn't re-model the whole system yourself. So that removes the "mystery" part of abstract... so what about the "abstraction" specfiically bothers you? Not trying to change your mind, just trying to understand the complaint.

Whatever "abstraction" was put in was done to a) keep the numbers small rather than having to total up hundreds of pounds of equipment, b) make resolution faster, c) include bulk into the mix. Weight alone as an abstraction didn't satisfy any of those criteria.

It's not as "straightforward" as just totalling up poundage, but the pounds aren't really a measure of how encumbering an object is... it's just another abstraction. Just one you seem to be more comfortable with, I guess.
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As one who has played EV pretty much by the book, I think cheeplives hit encumbrance right on the head. EV has that mix of abstract with simplicity that works. It doesn't help at all that each of the printings of the PHB screw up the encumbrance section in some way with errata.

Of coruse it's a matter of taste, but in the games that I have run and am currently running in, we keep track of EV pretty tight. Generally speaking, it has worked. Yeah the EV system sure seems to add up encumbrance fast making characters slow (as compared to other D&D and D&D-like games). Get yourself a pack horse.

~O
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Omote wrote:
As one who has played EV pretty much by the book, I think cheeplives hit encumbrance right on the head. EV has that mix of abstract with simplicity that works. It doesn't help at all that each of the printings of the PHB screw up the encumbrance section in some way with errata.

Of coruse it's a matter of taste, but in the games that I have run and am currently running in, we keep track of EV pretty tight. Generally speaking, it has worked. Yeah the EV system sure seems to add up encumbrance fast making characters slow (as compared to other D&D and D&D-like games). Get yourself a pack horse.

~O

Same here pretty much, I simplified the EV of things in packs/containers pretty much along the lines of (Serlerans?) the post in another thread about just having two weights for containers- full and empty. If you want to sit and pick at the Ev system you probably could but it works for me and yeah, I find the philosophy of it kind of more logical than just straight pounds and the small numbers easier to get a handle on (I'm from a metric country so I don't have the natural affinity with pounds some others might).

It does fill up quick which means my PC's need hirelings, torchbearers etc which I actually like as a DM as it gives me a few more plot devices and an easy new PC introduction pool!

cheeplives wrote:
I guess you just lose me on the "abstract" thing...

Why do I say it's too abstract? Because it has nothing in the real world to base its measurements on. I'm sorry, but while I know there are a lots of people on this forum who like the system as presented, I don't.

Firstly, there's no real world measurement to base 1 EV off of. That is why you don't find many games, if any, that use such a system. Games that use encumbrance or something like it base it on something concrete, whether it be the weight of a coin, pounds, or in Science-Fiction settings, grams and kilograms.

Second, you have the fiddly bit of subtracting when it comes to worn and capacity objects. Now, I am very good at math and can subtract in my head without an issue. However, there are many players in the past who couldn't stand the fact that AD&D had subtraction in it. It's far easier to add than subtract. Even I, while having no issue with subtracting in my head, would prefer to add things together. It's simpler that way.

Third, you have capacity objects themselves modifying the amount that can be carried. While I understand full well the distribution of weight and all that, the fact remains that the mass is still a constant.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the system as presented is the one system that gets in the way of the role playing. In other words, it is the one system that reminds everyone that they are in fact playing a game in the middle of the game. At least in using a more traditional system the rule doesn't interfere with the gaming.

In a nutshell, it's not simple, not intuitive, and gets in the way of the game. Or put another way, it tries to model reality way too closely for a game. And that's a potential turn off to people who are used to simpler systems.
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My small homage to E.G.G.

Fair enough, Traveller. I disagree with most of your points, but at least I understand where you're coming from.

I will agree that the implementation of Capacity items wasn't perfect... in fact, that's why I ended up posting a retraction where Cap items should just have two EVs: one when almost empty and one when full... it's simpler in the end and basically ends with the same result.
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discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

I believe a well designed game system will have the rules be nearly invisible to the player during play. All of WotC's d20 game systems as well as all the games that required a d20 core rulebook from WotC to play fail. Pathfinder fails. The heavy, bloated, overly-mechanistic rules in these systems ensure that you're reminded at every moment that you're playing a game.

Castles & Crusades for the most part does not fail, except when it comes to encumbrance. It is perhaps the one game mechanic that gets the most press on these boards. A game mechanic that was truly simple would not be getting so many questions about obvious things that should have been explained in the first print of the PHB. Saying "the ad-hoc system covers that" is a cop-out. It should have been explained. Therefore, encumbrance fails in regards to simplicity.

The system isn't intuitive mainly because it is never defined what 1EV actually is. Is it equivalent to a gallon of water (12"x12"x7", 8lbs.), half gallon (10"x5"x4", 4lbs.) or something else entirely? Unless a real world measurement is defined, the system will never be as intuitive as it could be.

Gary using coins in D&D as a unit of encumbrance was a stroke of genius, because he tied encumbrance to a real world measurement that was both simple and intuitive. In labeling 1oz. as a coin gave he gave encumbrance a universal appeal, since much of the world uses the metric system and may not know what an ounce or pound is. The coin system is simple and intuitive, which the C&C system is not.

As to why it gets in the way of the role playing, that goes back to my mention of its inconsistent application throughout the rules; something the Trolls are already aware of from my mention of it on another thread pertaining to encumbrance. The question is, even after the Trolls address the inconsistent application of encumbrance will it ever get out of the way of the role playing? Will it ever become simple and intuitive to the point that we're going to stop seeing threads regarding the encumbrance system?

I don't believe so.
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To be fair, the EV mechanic as a rules question doesn't come up that often. When this topic does appear in some form (like in this thread which is actually the weight of coins), it is mainly you traveller that talk so much about it. Face it man, you're obsessed with hatred over EV as it appears in the C&C PHB. From my perspective, EV is pretty simple. Though it may not be transparent (as our group tends to play a little bit closer to rules aspect of the game), it certainly shouldn't burden the casual C&C game. Note the EV, and if your character is close to what the true EV (by-the-book) should be, than you're good to go!

~O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

You need to calm down a bit. No one was challenging your points, I just disagree with you. And not because this is "my baby" or anything of that nature... far from it. I'd never put an encumbrance system like this in a game I'd write... I was basing it off of an earlier playtest version the Troll Lords had written and tweaked the numbers for internal consistancy.

I'm not going to get dragged into a point by point refutation of your argument. I disagree and will leave it at that. The EV system is much maligned here on the boards, where the grognard contingency is high and most people would have probably preferred the old Gold Coin system, I'm sure. In meeting people outside these very niche boards, the EV system is largely thought of as neutral to good in my experience... and while that's anecdotal, I'd probably hazard to guess that averaging the two we'd get that some people like it and others don't... like most aspects of games.

Sorry you don't like it... I guess all that matters is that the Troll Lords liked it enough to use it in the PHB... or else couldn't be pissed to write one themselves...
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I think it is both, cheep. Or, is that all four? I lost count. How much EV is an encumbrance system anyway?
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
I think it is both, cheep. Or, is that all four? I lost count. How much EV is an encumbrance system anyway?

Well, I know it doesn't get the x0.5 modifier for being "balanced"

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cheeplives wrote:
You need to calm down a bit.

Methinks you read too much into my second post, because I wasn't annoyed. Far from it. I simply added some supplementary information to my point of view, reiterated just why I don't like the system, and left it at that.

If you think that was me annoyed, just bring up OSRIC and see how fast I can get annoyed.
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