Troll Lord Games

I've noticed on various Forums of late, there seems to be quite a bit of "bile" rising against C&C.

This venom (which obviously pi**es me off, because I love the game) seems to be unfounded - and a lot of the time is coming from folks who haven't even played the game to begin with!

Anyone else on here noticed similar on other forums - or is it just me?

Any ideas why it might be so?
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

It's not recent, it's been there from the start of the Crusade. If you go back to the Dragonsfoot or Grognard's Tavern forums from a few years ago, you'll see some really nasty stuff.

Why? The root of 'fan' comes from fanatical.

Some people get that way. It's worse on the Interwebs because there is a lot less chance of someone punching you in the nose for being obnoxious here.

IMO it's best just to enjoy your game and not worry about what someone "out there" is thinking or saying about it.
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A Room Zoom Zoom. A Room Zoom Zoom. Gilly Gilly Gilly Gilly Ot Zat Za Come open the magic door with me, With your imagination there's so much we can see. There is a doorway that leads to a place. I'll find my way by the smile on your face.

I've noticed it before, it just seems to be "increasing in intensity" of late - maybe its going through a "bad" cycle.

To me (at least) C&C is where AD&D SHOULD have gone after 1st Edition (not being huge fan of 2e).
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

I can say that I do not have venom for C&C. I do have criticisms of various things but I don't hate the game or TLG. In fact, I use my C&C books when playing OD&D, AD&D and even 3.X.

However, I never did understand some of the things that are said by people that never played any game. The 4e stuff comes to mind. I reserved judgment until I played it. I found it fun but not a game I would buy into.

I think the biggest problem is that people let their emotions get in the way. Everyone does this, including me. Sometimes the best thing is to step back, breathe and look at the issue objectively.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Its NOT just on Dragonsfoot though!

I don't have any realy venom towards any system (venom towards companies is another discussion entirely) I just find it "odd" that C&C seems to stir up so much!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

Yeah, it does do that. My thought is that it ticks of hard core 3.X players because it shows their system can be run more efficient, something they don't like. It also messes with hard core AD&Ders in that it shows their game can be ran more easily with better mechanics and be compatible with what is out there.

I think that those two things are really what messes with people.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Oh I know, I actually run (prior to September of last year when I went "exclusive" with C&C) different versions of "D&D" for Different Groups.

The most "hardcore power gamers" out there are the 3.x crowd!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

I think there has also been a confusion of criticism with venom. Now, I am not accusing any one person of this, just stating that there are some that cannot handle a criticism of the beloved system. This happens in all circles.

To pull from another area; I love my country but I have my criticisms of it. I love my faith but, I have problems with the mainstream church. Is this venom? Do I hate my country and my God? NO! I feel that being a blind follower of anything is an unhealthy perspective.

So how can having criticism of a game system equal hatred of that system?
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Julian Grimm wrote:
Yeah, it does do that. My thought is that it ticks of hard core 3.X players because it shows their system can be run more efficient, something they don't like. It also messes with hard core AD&Ders in that it shows their game can be ran more easily with better mechanics and be compatible with what is out there.

I think that those two things are really what messes with people.

Basically agree. I had a friend who's a rabid OS guy actually tell me that running B2 with a 1st level C&C wizard (with 2 1st level spells) totally wrecks the balance of the module. With *1* extra first level spell.

Now playing Basic D&D, where said spell on a scroll costs only 100 gp? Oh, that's fine.
To extrapolate a bit on what Julian said above:

Old Schoolers felt that C&C wasn't "Old School Enough' and so it betrayed their expectations.

3X players felt that C&C was not detailed enough in rules (ie like 3X) and so felt it betrayed their expectations.

So, the vociferous ends of each group felt 'betrayed' and so vented online. IMO, if the radical ends of each discourse hate the product, its likely because its in the middle; and thus 'just right'.
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Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

sieg wrote:
if the radical ends of each discourse hate the product, its likely because its in the middle; and thus 'just right'.

I like that
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

Sieg speak truth!
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Its odd he should say that, I've run a few D&D Scenarios for C&C (not B2 Keep on the Borderlands unfortunately) including B1 In Search of the Unknown - I've never found the extra Spell Wizards get to be a problem!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

Considering my AD&D houserules the extra spell is the least of the concerns. My favorite 2e option was the 3d4 first level spells, added in with my take on magic you could have some very devastating wizards at first level.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Julian Grimm wrote:
Considering my AD&D houserules the extra spell is the least of the concerns. My favorite 2e option was the 3d4 first level spells, added in with my take on magic you could have some very devastating wizards at first level.

I've ALWAYS given Wizards Bonus Spells for high Int, it just seemed "right" to me.

I run C&C for three groups - two play C&C pure - no house rules, and it works fine.

The third is mainly made up of my original AD&D Group, so thats "house ruled" up to the wazoo LoL!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

I have always seen house rules as part of the hobby. Some of mine exist to convey the tone I want for my campaign and others exist to clarify or change rules that just don't work for us. Ironically, BTB gaming is the least 'old-school' way to play.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

BTB gaming?

Burn the Boats?
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

Just to motivate the crew .
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"Ethics are so annoying. I avoid them on principle."-Bucky Katt

"You can wordify anything if you just verb it."-again, Bucky Katt

Ravenstar wrote:
BTB gaming?

Burn the Boats?

By The Book!

Burn the Book!
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

This is why I asked, it could be anything - and still could be applicable to the discussion LoL!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

I notice that on one forum specifically, there are about three individuals who are so against C&C that they sprout up like weeds in any thread that even dares mention the game. I have learned to identify and ignore these people and try to answer actual honest questions and concerns about the game without getting into a verbal melee with some bonehead that is probably plotting his escape from his mother's basement.

Thats why I thought I would raise the question on here, rather than elsewhere - start a "flame war" and end up feeling "bugged" by the whole thing!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

The same thing can be said about C&C's defenders. There are a handful of them them that are a bit too agressive when defending C&C. It doesn't seem that by their defensive nature they are trying to hurt C&C, but I think some of them actually do a disservice from time to time with their rhetoric.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote wrote:
The same thing can be said about C&C's defenders. There are a handful of them them that are a bit too agressive when defending C&C. It doesn't seem that by their defensive nature they are trying to hurt C&C, but I think some of them actually do a disservice from time to time with their rhetoric.

~O

And another GREAT reason to keep such discussions amongst ourselves!

HOWEVER - in their defense, the sheer amount of unpleasantness generated by those who seem to detest C&C so vehemently - you can (sort of) understand why they might be a little oversensitive and react so quickly and harshly!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

Yeah, I understand that Drew?. However, when dealing with a neutral crowd to C&C that kind of defense tends to really come off the wrong way IMO. I'm not saying it's not warrented, but to somebody who doesn't know the game or the game's defender, it can come across too heavy-handed.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I'm not saying I would be that way, I am saying I can UNDERSTAND why they might.

I've converted a LOT of players, and I would imaging my "daft" and fairly soft nature helped somewhat LoL!
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

We're not oversensative. We just enjoy tilting with windmills a lot!
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Julian Grimm wrote:
I can say that I do not have venom for C&C. I do have criticisms of various things but I don't hate the game or TLGI think there has also been a confusion of criticism with venom.

This is pretty much my view on it, too. I don't shy away from criticising aspects of C&C that I don't like, but I don't hate the game (and certainly don't hate its players). And I don't mind other people having different opinions. I played C&C for quite a while and had a lot of fun. I just found that TSR D&D suited me better, and is what I was really looking for. And I still make use of some of the TLG products (esp. the Castle Zagyg and Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds stuff). I always keep my eye out for stuff I can use in my game, and C&C stats are close enough that I can easily do that. (In addition to TSR and JG D&D material, I've got stuff statted for C&C, Hackmaster, "OGL 1e," OSRIC, S&W, et cetera.)

sieg wrote:
Old Schoolers felt that C&C wasn't "Old School Enough' and so it betrayed their expectations.

3X players felt that C&C was not detailed enough in rules (ie like 3X) and so felt it betrayed their expectations.

So, the vociferous ends of each group felt 'betrayed' and so vented online. IMO, if the radical ends of each discourse hate the product, its likely because its in the middle; and thus 'just right'.

This is close to how I see it, too, although I don't feel betrayed or radical. I see C&C very much as a via media, a middle road between the approaches of TSR D&D and WotC D&D. (It is, perhaps, a little closer to the old school end of the spectrum than to WotC D&D, but still in the middle.) That, to me, is its great strength and its great weakness. Whether its a strength or a weakness to you, personally, depends on what you're looking for.
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http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log

I have run (and played to a lesser degree) every edition of D&D/AD&D since the White Box Edition - I've had a "love afair" with D&D/AD&D all my RPG'ing life - but I have personally never been happier with a set of rules than I am with C&C (AD&D 1st Ed being the next most "comfortable" for me).

It works great "as is" but takes house-rulings so easily it still surprises me.

I find it odd (and thats just my personal view) that a few folks have "wandered away" from the C&C fold.
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Drew? at Dragonsfoot.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules - Gary Gygax
Last words are for fools who haven't said enough . . . .

[quote="Ravenstar"]I have run (and played to a lesser degree) every edition of D&D/AD&D since the White Box Edition - I've had a "love afair" with D&D/AD&D all my RPG'ing life - but I have personally never been happier with a set of rules than I am with C&C (AD&D 1st Ed being the next most "comfortable" for me).

It works great "as is" but takes house-rulings so easily it still surprises me.

I find it odd (and thats just my personal view) that a few folks have "wandered away" from the C&C fold.[/quote]

Sort of brings to mind; You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Then again, some folks simply get a burr up the a**e for whatever unfathomable reasons and go off in a huff.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society