Use of Deities

All topics including role playing games, board games, etc., etc.
Post Reply
Troll Root
Ungern
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:00 am

Use of Deities

Post by Troll Root »

Curious to know how other CK's/GM's etc. use deities in their games. Do you mix and match from several pantheons? Are you only true to a certain pantheon? Is it game specific? How do you do deity interaction within the game itself, as in with the PC's.

I myself allow most deities when I am running a game. How large a part they play depends on the game itself, where it's taking place, the make up of the PC's and whatever else comes to mind. I like interaction between the deities and the PC's as well. I like to use avatars, disguises and indirect methods as well.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Arduin »

I use racial ones, Greek & Norse. Interaction? Other than via divine casters or, EXTREMELY subtle stuff, nothing really. Gods and ants don't mix well unless something REALLY world shattering is happening. ;)
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

tylermo
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by tylermo »

I'm looking into it. A couple of my players want to use some from OG&M. Bonuses are typically granted. I just don't want some players over-dominating others with said bonuses.

User avatar
Lord Dynel
Maukling
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Lord Dynel »

In the revamp of my campaign setting (which is upcoming), I'm doing away with my pantheon (which is one god of each alignment) and going with a "dualism" that is based, partly, on the 3rd edition D&D Deities & Demigods. There will be one "good" god and one "evil" god. I thought this might be an interesting take, and I'd like to see how it goes. I figured I would have different sects (and cults) devoted to each god that would focus on different aspects of their respective beings. Worship won't be on through these specific branches alone, though, as they will exist as fringe factions (in most cases)

Nature will exist as a "force" that will grant druids their power (they'll be able to pull their magic from nature, literally). Nature is a semi-sentient and while not a god, per se, if will be capable of being manipulated by those who know how (druids) and nature's will will be carried out by those folk.

Some things I'm considering:
Dwarves would have practice ancestor worship - the governing deity would be the one the ancestor worshipped. So if you worshipped your great-grandfather, who followed "Good God," then you, by default would also. I don't know it this would be individual ancestors or clan ancestors as a whole. Elves will recognize the "Good God" as the creator of the world, but revere nature and life above all else.

I'm also considering (I'm pretty sure) on having demon and devil worship. Meaning, a cleric of Orcus (for example) would get spells from "Evil God" since Orcus would be under that gods power.

I've been thinking about saints, too. So, the followers of the Church of St. Invictus would preach judging evil and it's eradication (since Invictus was LG in life and was judge, jury, and execution of evil-doers) and receive clerical power from "Good God" through St. Invictus.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

User avatar
TheMetal1
Lore Drake
Posts: 1250
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Chapin, South Carolina

Re: Use of Deities

Post by TheMetal1 »

Yeah, I'm run something similiar to Lord D's, but go with monotheism, creator instead of dualism - i.e. the Good God. Evil and other pantheons are are there, but majority of demi-humans, and humans recognize the creator, are atheists, or believe something else (i.e. agnostic). Arcane Magic is a 'force', druid magic is another type of force, Divine magic is granted by the creator. There is a dualism spin - a usuper that is operating, along side demons & devils and the like. Other pantheons, are just demons devils and the usurper maskerading.
De Oppresso Liber
Pro Deo Et Patria

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Omote »

I tend to use a tight-knit polytheism. Sure, there may be many gods to worship, but only a select few are truely powerful beings who bless followers with 9 levels of magic, "domains," bonuses, etc. Much like Lord Dynel, I have demons and devils who can grant spells (of limited level), and saints which could be lower-gods or "hero-gods." I also have frequent use of heretic and false gods. Sure, they are not false to everybody, and some "false" gods have magnificently large followings, but they are just that, not real within my campaign and provide nothing mechanics related to characters.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 14094
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by serleran »

I make my own inspired from a variety of sources, but not ripped directly from any. For example, I might have a deity that is somewhat like Odin and Mithras, with a dash of Raven. I like to keep the numbers small... the various races just have their own name for them but its the same deities for all.

I have many demons and some of them are gods. But, for the most part, they're just faceless evils that make the adventurers angry.

User avatar
TheMetal1
Lore Drake
Posts: 1250
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Chapin, South Carolina

Re: Use of Deities

Post by TheMetal1 »

I'm actually digging the Avatar thing from OG&M. Pretty cool, trying to sort the stats out. I'm going to try out the boons for worshipers/followers, etc. as well. I've had an idea for it, but seeing how its done in OM&G, I think it will work pretty well.
De Oppresso Liber
Pro Deo Et Patria

User avatar
Julian Grimm
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4609
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Location: SW Missouri
Contact:

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Julian Grimm »

My take is similar to Lord Dynel's and TheMetal1's. I have a singular creator deity but many evil usurpers and supposed gods. Deus, is acknowledged by all of the main races but is worshiped in differing aspects. To the dwarves He is a craftsman, to the elves He is more natural, Halflings see Him as a Father and Farmer. Humans tend to mix all of these aspects together. The church itself is divided into Orthodox and Reformed with the Reformed Church having a greater following.

As for magic, arcane magic is altering the power that was used for creation and divine comes from Deus himself. Druids are of an order of the Church that see themselves as stewards of creation so their power comes from Deus as well. As for infernal magic, evil priests draw power from certain entities but it is not granted in the same way Deus grants spells to his clerics as there is a price for using dark magic.

There are also a series of stewards that oversee creation itself but they are never worshiped or venerated. The are acknowledged as servants of Deus and nothing more. There are those that seek to be worshiped but they have turned from Deus and are no longer of Him having begun serving the darker powers of the world.


Deus usually never acts directly in the world preferring to appoint worshipers to certain tasks. In extreme cases He will send a steward to do something that the mortals cannot do themselves. Any time a steward is appointed to a task radical changes will come in the wake of the action as was the case when the Orthodox and Reformed Churches split from one another.
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

User avatar
AGNKim
Lord High Inquisitor
Posts: 1196
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Sherwood Forrest

Re: Use of Deities

Post by AGNKim »

In the last C&C campaign I ran, I used the Greyhawk deities (which made sense since it was set in Greyhawk). I have the old Folio from the early 80s for seed and the interwebs has a plethora of information. Plus, I've been using Greyhawk since the mid 80s so I'm pretty well versed in the pantheon(s). As far as interaction, worshipers rarely interact with their god, especially at low-levels. I make it clear, however, that atheism is non-existent since it is a well-known fact that the gods do indeed exist.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Arduin »

AGNKim wrote:I make it clear, however, that atheism is non-existent since it is a well-known fact that the gods do indeed exist.
Yeah, in a typical "D&D" type world, atheism = low to no I.Q. Kinda like people today who believe that the Earth is flat.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Lord Dynel
Maukling
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Lord Dynel »

AGNKim wrote:I make it clear, however, that atheism is non-existent since it is a well-known fact that the gods do indeed exist.
Indeed. I've had a couple of players, over the years, go the opposite route. They wouln't, or couldn't, pick one deity so they took a more polytheist approach - they would say a small prayer to the appropriate god depending on the situation it was in. Pretty neat approach, I thought, and very "down to earth" if that makes sense.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4051
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Go0gleplex »

The campaign I'm slowly building uses only three deities whom have little direct contact with the mortal plane, instead working through angels, aspects, and devils (demons) respectively.

I find that I start feeling pigeon holed when using established pantheons.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
Lord Dynel
Maukling
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Lord Dynel »

Go0gleplex wrote:I find that I start feeling pigeon holed when using established pantheons.
Me too! My biggest issue, though, is finding that the players often get apathetic (for lack of a better word) about a large pantheon of gods. They don't seem to care that much about a large suite of gods. I don't know if it's the sheer number or maybe I haven't put them into play properly but they don't seem to that interested in the affairs of the gods. I thought that, with a reboot of my setting, having a cozy little pantheon with which the affairs of the gods (all two of them) will be much more "in their face" they'll take notice more.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

User avatar
mgtremaine
Ulthal
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:00 am
Location: San Diego, Ca
Contact:

Re: Use of Deities

Post by mgtremaine »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Go0gleplex wrote:I find that I start feeling pigeon holed when using established pantheons.
Me too! My biggest issue, though, is finding that the players often get apathetic (for lack of a better word) about a large pantheon of gods. They don't seem to care that much about a large suite of gods. I don't know if it's the sheer number or maybe I haven't put them into play properly but they don't seem to that interested in the affairs of the gods. I thought that, with a reboot of my setting, having a cozy little pantheon with which the affairs of the gods (all two of them) will be much more "in their face" they'll take notice more.

I think with most aspects of world building this is true. Players often don't really care for all the details so if you can keep it simple is someway but leave the door open for creativity then you are set.

I've been resisting commenting on this question because it's one of those, "lemme esplain, no that will take too long, lemme sum up." I've been thinking about the question for well on 20 years. When I first wiped out my GM folder and started over with a clean slate I took most of the greyhawk gods and a few home grown and off we went. But the metaphysical questions of why and how persisted. Soon I had categories of Demi, Lesser, Greater and finally Elder. Then the concept that Elder gods directly shaped the universe with their attributes. It was a complex series of thoughts best left for explaining under the stars at night to 1 player who actually cared. :)

Eventually I purged all the greyhawk gods and anyone else's IP and I ended up with a system I could live with. First there is a Creator, I use the name AZ, the beginning and end. AZ created the Inner plans and the forces that under pin the universe. These forces are defined as the 10 True Gods, each a diametrically opposed force. (Life, Death, Order, Chaos, Harmony, Conflict, Evil, Good, Action, Thought) The True Gods spent the early eons of creations in the inner planes shaping creation, bringing forth new wonders and all the things you'd expect from an Age of the Gods. Eventually they were able to create their own realms in the Astral Plane fueled by the energies of AZ's original creation. So from this system I get a brand new take on the outer planes each one under the dominion of a True God. (I also get a cool Star Map based on 3 axes and 10 planes, with other strangeness in the astral plane)

Now here is where the players come in. Only the most learned of Sages and Savants really understand all this. the actually system of worship is highly personal and small scale, focused instead on the vassals and beings of the outer planes which actually interact with the mundane world. We are talking house gods, cults, regional deities, and religion on the small scale more Sword and Sorcery if you will. These "gods" have aspects of the True Gods, but most importantly they are stated, in good old fashioned old-school ways. These qusi-gods are killable with much effort, the True Gods are not, and AZ something else, the beginning and the end. Nothing else needs to be said.

As I said it's way more information then most players will want but it gave me a structure where I can make up any kind of god I want, or they want, with out much effort. Demons, Devils, Angels, whatever, all fit nicely into my cosmology. I never have to worry about the were do "spells come from" because the True Gods take care of that, and more of the nature of the universe gets revealed as the players get higher and higher level.

Sorry for the long post, I'm sure I lost most of you :)

-Mike

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7352
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Rigon »

I've been kicking around a world where there is a dualistic pantheon for the humans, the elves worship nature (a family of 5 gods), the dwarves are all about the elements, and gnomes and halflings worship the seasons. So about 15 gods. Half-elves and half-ors tend to pick and choice which ones they want. It's very roughed out in my head, so to speak.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Re: Use of Deities

Post by gideon_thorne »

Troll Root wrote:Curious to know how other CK's/GM's etc. use deities in their games.
Simple. I don't. There's a distinct lack of clergy or divine intervention of any sort in my campaign. Outsiders might come in with some of their more outlandish notions, but ya know how foreign folks are with their strange ideas and customs. :)
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
ArgoForg
Red Cap
Posts: 341
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:

Re: Use of Deities

Post by ArgoForg »

In WoP (my homemade world), I have a polytheistic pantheon of 17 gods, each devoted to a particular sphere of influence (priests of each god or goddess get at least one granted power based on the deity's domain, and much like specialist wizards, may have spells that they cannot use as effectively because it falls outside their deity's sphere of power). The 'civilized'/PC races generally worship these by one name or another... even though it's a polytheistic pantheon, and people acknowledge-- and may show proper reverence to-- all of the gods, they seldom devote themselves to more than a couple.

The priests and shamans of not-so-civilized races (oroc, ogrec, goblynkin, scrag, sauhagin, etc.) are granted powers by gods that are more in line with their own beliefs-- some are facets of the same pantheons as the humans and elves, some are minor deities in their own right.

There is also a monotheistic belief in a single deity named Phelar that started as a cult a little more than a thousand years ago and quickly expanded into a major movement, especially in the country that now bears his name. Phelar's priests are zealous missionaries, and often preach that all the other gods are simply singular facets of the one true god. And since they are granted similar powers without the apparent 'specialization', it lends credence to their belief.

My plan is to detail it all out someday, in a supplement. As it stands, I just have a crapload of notes and no time to categorize them. :mrgreen:
- "I just happen to prefer games where the GM actually has final say on rules and is not just the wall to roll dice off to decide what happens."

User avatar
bulletmeat
Ungern
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 7:00 am
Location: looking at the old volcano

Re: Use of Deities

Post by bulletmeat »

For AD&D2e I was using no Gods at all (ancient cataclysm forced them to sleep) & had no clerics. With C&C I made Cyrstal Mages (using crystal pieces of the third moon that broke up and fell onto the world) which had cleric spells, bth, but bard abilities .

Recently I found an old OD&D folder I had with a three god only world that I was thinking of porting over. Avothar (lawful), Delenna (neutral), and Suthule (chaotic) are worshiped with clerics, druids, and priests. I am keeping the alignments as is since, for example, one kingdom is over zealous (inquisition) in their worship of order through Avothar. Infact during the creation of the world (as told by the book of Tellos), Avothar tried to 'quell' his sister's (Delenna) wild side, but that begat Suthule (though Suthule's priests say otherwise). This allows a grey area into good & evil for the 'chosen' races.

The gods only interact w/mortal through their servents (devas, great spirits, dragon lords). The dragon lords usually have monsterous races worship them even though they were created by Suthule.
Me: "THE CAKE IS A LIE! THERE IS NO SPOON! WHAT IS THE RIDDLE OF STEEL?!"
Wife: "...I just want to know what you want for dinner."

User avatar
Sir Osis of Liver
Unkbartig
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Very interesting thread. I haven't stuck to one single pantheon, but I've instead adopted OG&M, giving my players a wide berth as it were. I try keeping specific pantheons for specific regions on my map, but beyond that, all bets are off. For me, it's all the more fodder for RP. If a player throws out a character with a specific set of rituals/practices that the character must fulfill (as well as specific taboos to avoid), it makes for some fun times in town, especially. The more stuff to give me ideas for ways to get them into a game, the better. :twisted:

User avatar
slimykuotoan
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3702
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Nine Hells

Re: Use of Deities

Post by slimykuotoan »

I had a one time game 15 or so years ago where I CKed Gilgamesh from the AD&D Deities & Demigods. The party found him in a village and beat the nine hells out of him. It was a one time deal, etc. and was a complete blast which my players still talk about today.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan

User avatar
Dead Horse
Red Cap
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:23 pm
Location: Lurking in Omaha NE

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Dead Horse »

Jim ward mentioned letting his group play any god they wanted and then pitting them against 2 death machines from Gamma World.

I tried this a few years back. Was pretty cool. I used only one death machine as Jim said he killed all the gods. One death machine killed 2 of 6 gods and seriously hurt the rest before exploding.
Please don't beat me.
Not Worth Any Experiance Points Alive http://nwaepa.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Arduin »

Dead Horse wrote:Jim ward mentioned letting his group play any god they wanted and then pitting them against 2 death machines from Gamma World.

I tried this a few years back. Was pretty cool. I used only one death machine as Jim said he killed all the gods. One death machine killed 2 of 6 gods and seriously hurt the rest before exploding.
Why didn't the "God" just open a rift to the Neg material plane and have it suck in the machine?
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 14094
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Use of Deities

Post by serleran »

Perhaps technology is not affected by magic? A rift does not imply a vacuum, either, although, I'd have summoned a sphere of annihilation since it destroys everything it comes into contact with, force field or not.

Seems to be a lot of logical ways even a minor deity could wipe the floor with a death machine, but there also are several ways to counter each of those as well... so, I guess it comes down to 'how do the two games interact?' and for that everyone should have their own answer.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Arduin »

serleran wrote:Perhaps technology is not affected by magic? A rift does not imply a vacuum, either, although, I'd have summoned a sphere of annihilation since it destroys everything it comes into contact with, force field or not.

Seems to be a lot of logical ways even a minor deity could wipe the floor with a death machine, but there also are several ways to counter each of those as well... so, I guess it comes down to 'how do the two games interact?' and for that everyone should have their own answer.
Yes, I was just talking about an industrial sized sphere of annihilation. An actual deity should take care of something like that as an afterthought. Otherwise, they wouldn't be Gods...
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Dead Horse
Red Cap
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:23 pm
Location: Lurking in Omaha NE

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Dead Horse »

AD&D has very specific set powers each dieity can use based on its ranking...
Demigod, lesser,intermediate,greater.
Then each dieity has powers and abilities laid out in the DDG book and finaly they also have class levels.
Those gods versus a death machine is generaly dieity destruction derby.
I didnt mention it but part of the senario is the death machine's attacks are targeted randomly.

This is stats for a Death Machine from 2nd ed Gamma World. The AD&D 1e DMG says a Gamma World ac of 1 = neg 6 ac in AD&D.
The random HD are to represent a random machine. New/maintained machines have max hp (1200) Compare that to dieities whith a max of 400 hp. Its incredibly fun to play but the gods are seriously out classed.

TYPE: Death Machine
NUMBER: 1d4-2
HIT DICE: 150d8
SENSORS: A/B/C
STATUS:2 RANKS
ARMOR: 1
CONTROL: G
POWER: B
MS:1d4+8 IN:1d8+l0 DX:1d10+11 PS:5d20+100
SPEED: PODS = 240/10200/180

DESCRIPTION: This 15-meter long, 9-meter wide, 3-meter high killing
machine is covered with knobby projections housing sensors and
weapons.
Its main weapons are 2 Blaster Cannons that do 25d6 damage
at a 1500-meter range. For close defense it has 6 Black Ray Guns
with a 300-meter range. 4 Trek Guns that do the same damage as Trek
Bombs and have a range of 18O meters (disintegration attack), and 16 Mark VII Blaster Batteries of 4 guns each 32d6 damage.
Other weapons include 8 Laser Batteries [5 guns each) that do 20d6 damage per Battery at a 1 500-meter range and can fire simultaneously, 6 Mini-missile Launchers with 5d20 missiles fired individually and a Fusion Bomb Launcher with 5d10 Fusion Bombs. Both the missiles and the Fusion Bombs have a 3000-meter range. These weapons can all fire at the same time.
An Energy Damping Field fuses the circuits of Robots coming within 80 meters of the Death Machine and does 200 points of damage to all Energy Screens except its own within that range. The Death Machine's own Energy Screen can
take 400 points of damage. Death Machines are very rare and will only
be found near CI's that they are assigned to defend and from which they
take orders. They almost always attack those who can't show Stage V
I.D.
Please don't beat me.
Not Worth Any Experiance Points Alive http://nwaepa.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Andred of Albans
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Use of Deities

Post by Andred of Albans »

I run a homebrew that began life as the Arden kingdom module for Chivalry & Sorcery (FGU) back in the early 1980's. I have been working on and running this game world on and off for over 30 years so I have a large amount of time invested in it. It covers several binders, each dealing with a different Kingdom. Most play centers in Arden and it's immediate neighbors.

I assume a monotheist religious reality (there is, in fact, only ONE god) but other spiritual beings exist.

Like in our real world, multiple religions exist. The Northmen worship (oddly enough) the Norse pantheon - these spirit beings are "lesser" gods at best and can only grant spells up to level 7.

The Druids still exist on the fringes of the realm and as an underground group oppressed by the various monotheist religions. The powers of the Old Faith are battered and weak, counting as demigods at best with the power to grant spells up to level 6.

There are scattered covens of diabolists who worship the powers of Hell - but they are no more powerful than the greatest of angels and can only grant spells up to level 5.

There are several religions that worship the True G-d and their clerics can routinely cast up to 8th level spells with 9th level being reserved only to the most saintly of clerics.
Visit my

Post Reply