The german influence on names in C&C

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The german influence on names in C&C

Post by rickyh »

I have to admit I prefer a straight up fantasy influence. The german sounding names to me makes oh so slightly (not hard mind you) more difficult to keep the mood going. I just think they are ugly words to say and detract somewhat.

It's just a personal dislike and I know I can (and do) rename things.

What do you guys think?

Would you adventure to the towns of Lundheim, Homberg, Jonnendorf, or the towns of Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Wolfscrest ?

The setting name itself is awesome.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by bc99 »

I actually like them. To me, they seem darker, more sinister. Then again, maybe that's my old-school remembrances of Warhammer FRP. I've always been a low fantasy guy myself.

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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Arduin »

rickyh wrote:
What do you guys think?

Would you adventure to the towns of Lundheim, Homberg, Jonnendorf, or the towns of Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Wolfscrest ?
Wolf is a German based word as is hawk, deep & grey. :shock:

I forgot water is too. ;)
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arduin wrote:
rickyh wrote:
What do you guys think?

Would you adventure to the towns of Lundheim, Homberg, Jonnendorf, or the towns of Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Wolfscrest ?
Wolf is a German based word as is hawk, deep & grey. :shock:

I forgot water is too. ;)
It's been a long (long, long) time since I studied word origin, but if I recall correctly those are Old English words, used by the Anglo-Saxon from what now is England. So, technically they are of German origin, since the Anglo-Saxon were a Germanic tribe. But Old English has a very different structure and feel than Germanic. Pretzel, gestalt, glitz, angst, and bagel would be more along the lines of Germanic origin. Sorry for the history lesson. :oops:

I guess this would be what the OP was referring to - Germanic sounding words with a Germanic base. It doesn't bother me, personally, that much. My preference would be "generic" fantasy sounding names, but Germanic would be one of those that I wouldn't have a problem with. I can see how that could be a bother, though. There are certain origins that I don't particularily care to see on a fantassy map as well.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Arduin »

Lord Dynel wrote:
It's been a long (long, long) time since I studied word origin, but if I recall correctly those are Old English words,
I cross checked in the OED
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote:
It's been a long (long, long) time since I studied word origin, but if I recall correctly those are Old English words,
I cross checked in the OED
Yeah, they're still Old English words. :) Look for an O.E. - that's usually the abbrivation they used for Old English.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Arduin »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Yeah, they're still Old English words. :) Look for an O.E. - that's usually the abbrivation they used for Old English.
Actually, they were Old Low German or O. H. German. One was also E & W Frisian. Although, feel free to contact the editors. :)
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Relaxo »

Ich denke es ist ausgeseichnet.

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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote:
Yeah, they're still Old English words. :) Look for an O.E. - that's usually the abbrivation they used for Old English.
Actually, they were Old Low German or O. H. German. One was also E & W Frisian. Although, feel free to contact the editors. :)
I just looked up the OED - a site I'm not particularily fond of, but I digress :) - and searched for water. Water is derived from wæter, which is an Old English word, itself derived from the Proto-Germanic word of watar. Then they give you a bunch of other words and where they're from (like Old Low German, Old High German, (newer) German, Old Norse, and Gothic). These words are "compared to" (note the cf.) the first etymology, but the "truest" (for lack of a better word) is the first one - usually the first one is the oldest recorded. That is, as far as I can tell from that website.

EDIT: Maybe the conversation has derailed the thread a little too much...my apologies for my part! :)
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Arduin »

Lord Dynel wrote: I just looked up the OED - a site I'm not particularily fond of, but I digress :) - and searched for water. Water is derived from wæter, which is an Old English word, itself derived from the Proto-Germanic word of watar. Then they give you a bunch of other words and where they're from (like Old Low German, Old High German, (newer) German, Old Norse, and Gothic). These words are "compared to" (note the cf.) the first etymology, but the "truest" (for lack of a better word) is the first one - usually the first one is the oldest recorded. That is, as far as I can tell from that website.

EDIT: Maybe the conversation has derailed the thread a little too much...my apologies for my part! :)
water, n. [Com. Teut.: OE. wæter neut. corresponds to OFris. watar,OTeut. *watar a parallel formation with n instead of r occurs in Goth. watō neut.

The OE is just OFris. You should invest in the full E-version ;)
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by rickyh »

Yeah I'm not looking at the origins and history so much as these 'heims' 'dorfs' 'berg' 'stat'.
I studied German for two semesters in high school in the mid 90s then when I worked at a local college in the library. The library director taught classes on it. Don't get me wrong I like the German culture. My wife and I are gonna see Motley Crue and Kiss and eat at a german restaurant and I've been to Cincinatti's Oktober fest. I just prefer traditional (read generic) fantasy names.

"You've finally reached the city of Khadoria."
"You've finally reached the city of Evernight."
"You've finally reached the city of Silverleaf."
"You've finally reached the city of Breton."
"You've finally reached the city of Freeport"

"You've finally reached the city of Ludenstat." Ugh...
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote: I just looked up the OED - a site I'm not particularily fond of, but I digress :) - and searched for water. Water is derived from wæter, which is an Old English word, itself derived from the Proto-Germanic word of watar. Then they give you a bunch of other words and where they're from (like Old Low German, Old High German, (newer) German, Old Norse, and Gothic). These words are "compared to" (note the cf.) the first etymology, but the "truest" (for lack of a better word) is the first one - usually the first one is the oldest recorded. That is, as far as I can tell from that website.

EDIT: Maybe the conversation has derailed the thread a little too much...my apologies for my part! :)
water, n. [Com. Teut.: OE. wæter neut. corresponds to OFris. watar,OTeut. *watar a parallel formation with n instead of r occurs in Goth. watō neut.

The OE is just OFris. You should invest in the full E-version ;)
Don't need it, I have a desk reference. ;) Of course, I got off my lazy butt and pulled it out.

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Water also falls into, English in the "Distribution of Words:"
An Etymological Dictionary of the English Language wrote:ENGLISH: With the exception of some words of imitative origin, most of the following words can be found in Anglo-Saxon or in Middle English of the earliest period.
This corresponds to the image entry I included, that "water" first came into use during the Middle English period.

With many words, it comes down to where they were first spotted. If "wassar" (for example) was our word for water, then it would be of Germanic origin. Since we use water as found in the Old English period, that period is where our word is credited as being from.

And Old Frisian is not just Old English - similar, but not the same. That'd be like saying Italian and Spanish are basically the same language. :lol:

Never thought my Linguistics Humanities class would ever get any use! :D
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Lord Dynel »

rickyh wrote:Yeah I'm not looking at the origins and history so much as these 'heims' 'dorfs' 'berg' 'stat'.
I studied German for two semesters in high school in the mid 90s then when I worked at a local college in the library. The library director taught classes on it. Don't get me wrong I like the German culture. My wife and I are gonna see Motley Crue and Kiss and eat at a german restaurant and I've been to Cincinatti's Oktober fest. I just prefer traditional (read generic) fantasy names.

"You've finally reached the city of Khadoria."
"You've finally reached the city of Evernight."
"You've finally reached the city of Silverleaf."
"You've finally reached the city of Breton."
"You've finally reached the city of Freeport"

"You've finally reached the city of Ludenstat." Ugh...
I'm right there with ya, hoss. I wouldn't suggest playing any Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay! :lol:
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Arduin »

Lord Dynel wrote:
And Old Frisian is not just Old English - similar, but not the same.
REALLY???!! I didn't say they were. I said the WORD was the same. It was jut ADOPTED on the Isle from Frisian...
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

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Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote:
And Old Frisian is not just Old English - similar, but not the same.
REALLY???!! I didn't say they were. I said the WORD was the same. It was jut ADOPTED on the Isle from Frisian...
Okay, my mistake. I thought you were talking about the whole and not the word.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

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rickyh wrote:Yeah I'm not looking at the origins and history so much as these 'heims' 'dorfs' 'berg' 'stat'.
I studied German for two semesters in high school in the mid 90s then when I worked at a local college in the library. The library director taught classes on it. Don't get me wrong I like the German culture. My wife and I are gonna see Motley Crue and Kiss and eat at a german restaurant and I've been to Cincinatti's Oktober fest. I just prefer traditional (read generic) fantasy names.

"You've finally reached the city of Khadoria."
"You've finally reached the city of Evernight."
"You've finally reached the city of Silverleaf."
"You've finally reached the city of Breton."
"You've finally reached the city of Freeport"

"You've finally reached the city of Ludenstat." Ugh...

Well, I guess I am in the minority on this one. I actually like the old German feel of it. That said I tend to lean toward a slightly lower fantasy/more historic game than standard "generic" fantasy
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by gideon_thorne »

Somewhat germane to the discussion, both Davis and Steve spent some time in the military, largely stationed in Germany. It had something of an influence on Airhde, obviously. :)
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

Now see how confusing it is for those of us who were stationed in the orient? Until Steve educated me, I was pronouncing it "Airhead."
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

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Lurker wrote:Well, I guess I am in the minority on this one. I actually like the old German feel of it. That said I tend to lean toward a slightly lower fantasy/more historic game than standard "generic" fantasy
I guess I am to. There is nothing wrong with the go-to fantasy naming, but that is part of the problem for me, it seems most fantasy settings have the go-to names. It is refreshing having something different.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

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Sir Ironside wrote:
Lurker wrote:Well, I guess I am in the minority on this one. I actually like the old German feel of it. That said I tend to lean toward a slightly lower fantasy/more historic game than standard "generic" fantasy
I guess I am to. There is nothing wrong with the go-to fantasy naming, but that is part of the problem for me, it seems most fantasy settings have the go-to names. It is refreshing having something different.
That's a good point, sir. And Peter's/gideon_thorne's comment makes sense, too.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by serleran »

I like a mixture, a sort of world of Eclectica. For example, in my current home brew, the sandbox I am developing has basically just been a list of names and a few small notes, like "no iron smith," or "NPC is a dwarf." Some examples, of which I am certain not everyone will like:

Town of Bedlam -- minor port town; small population of mostly humans
Reinhaut Schloss -- name of the castle at center of Bedlam
The Cleft Stairs -- mountains surrounding the tower of Goreshul
Goreshul -- abandoned construction said to be haunted

Nothing great, I suppose, but sufficient for me.

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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Deepfire »

rickyh wrote: Don't get me wrong I like the German culture. My wife and I are gonna see Motley Crue and Kiss and eat at a german restaurant and I've been to Cincinatti's Oktober fest.
Sorry, not my main language, maybe I don't get it, but: What's german in Motley Crue and Kiss?Or did you just wanted to seperate your musical taste from gruesome Oktoberfestmusik? By the way, Oktoberfest is bavarian - bavaria is only a little part of germany and if you ask bavarians (and the other germans) if the bavarians (and the other germans) would like to have bavaria as a seperate country I am sure most people of both sides would happily say yes :) They already have their own language :-)

What I don't like when german names are used in english products is when they are wrong. A little google or a nice germanspeaking guy (hinthint) will help you see that Augsbrug or Dramstadt are wrong :)

Worst I have seen was a cthulhu adventure which used german names for german officers of WW2 (fair so far) but used their attitude as names - it sounded extremely foolish in german (cpt coward and deputy deception might be fine in Paranoia but are stupid in lovecraftian WW2)
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Sir Ironside »

Deepfire wrote:
rickyh wrote: Don't get me wrong I like the German culture. My wife and I are gonna see Motley Crue and Kiss and eat at a german restaurant and I've been to Cincinatti's Oktober fest.
Sorry, not my main language, maybe I don't get it, but: What's german in Motley Crue and Kiss
I didn't get it at first either, but I think that the German restaurant was the bit that was important, not Motley Crue or Kiss.
What I don't like when german names are used in english products is when they are wrong. A little google or a nice germanspeaking guy (hinthint) will help you see that Augsbrug or Dramstadt are wrong :)
Again, not sure if your talking about Airdhe, or just translations in general. But, if Airdhe, the names are inspired by German not a full on using the German language.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by magick3six »

Not sure about KISS, but Motley Crue use umlouts (no I can't spell it, the dang 2 dots over vowels!) in both words, maybe that's construed as having to do with German?

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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by Lord Dynel »

You guys crack me up!

:lol:
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by CKDad »

There's a fair few place names in Airhde that borrow more from French, and indeed other languages - the Kingdom of Anglemay, Brisindium, Capadistra in the Hanse (ok, you got me on Hanse) - so it's not completely German-derived. The Elvish names also clearly don't share the German heritage - Shindolay, for example.

I can see where it might not be to everyone's taste, but to me it helps with the "We're not in Kansas anymore" flavor without having to invent languages wholesale a la J.R.R. Tolkien. And it sure beats the "Let's just throw three syllables together and call it a fantasy name" that passes for a methodology in some works. (Don't get me started on Eragon.)

Try thinking of it this way: the root languages of most of the races native to Airhde (the Children of the All-Father) are descended from dwarvish, which is clearly German-derived, so it's not unreasonable to see a lot of names with those roots. In some places, the influence of the races which came from elsewhere (the Elves, for example) has modified or supplanted the older tounges.

I'm certainly missing big chunks of the history in my reasoning here, but for me, this sort of thing works. YMMV.

Sidebar: I'm re-reading Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Chronicles, set in late 9th and early 10th century England, and it's fascinating to see the influences of the various eras of invaders on the place names via this snapshot look what things were called at that time.
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by rickyh »

Lol, I think the forest has been missed for the trees on this thread. :lol: :geek: Thanks anyhow fellas!
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

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rickyh wrote:Lol, I think the forest has been missed for the trees on this thread. :lol: :geek: Thanks anyhow fellas!

Wait, now we are talking about trees ... did in miss something???? ;)

Rgr on us getting way down in the weeds on this, but that's what makes it sooo fun around here :D
I like a mixture, a sort of world of Eclectica. For example, in my current home brew, the sandbox I am developing has basically just been a list of names and a few small notes, like "no iron smith," or "NPC is a dwarf." Some examples, of which I am certain not everyone will like:

Town of Bedlam -- minor port town; small population of mostly humans
Reinhaut Schloss -- name of the castle at center of Bedlam
The Cleft Stairs -- mountains surrounding the tower of Goreshul
Goreshul -- abandoned construction said to be haunted

Serl, that sounds like a list for my world ( well not the Bedlam for a town) nice simple and bare boned. Let the game fill out the rest as needed!
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by gideon_thorne »

MormonYoYoMan wrote:Now see how confusing it is for those of us who were stationed in the orient? Until Steve educated me, I was pronouncing it "Airhead."
Strangely apt pronunciation for this crew. :lol:
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Re: The german influence on names in C&C

Post by redwullf »

gideon_thorne wrote:
MormonYoYoMan wrote:Now see how confusing it is for those of us who were stationed in the orient? Until Steve educated me, I was pronouncing it "Airhead."
Strangely apt pronunciation for this crew. :lol:
Of course the early iterations were called "Erde" - which is German for "Earth." 8-)
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