What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
- Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5844
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
...or, what things would you like to see clarified or have errata for?
Apparently, a 5th printing is on the horizon, according to the High Troll himself, in this thread, which spawns this post. I think that's a good thing. I kind of hope for more time between printings, myself, but that's my opinion.
Referencing that above thread, I wouldn't mind seeing some clarification on SR 0 and SR 1, based on a post from Steve a while back. I personally would like to have something done with the disengaging rules - I fel they need a little tweak, but that's my opinion. Other than that, I feel the 4th printing is pretty good (other than normal editing, etc.)
Note: Hit the "Submit" before I finished writing my post.
Apparently, a 5th printing is on the horizon, according to the High Troll himself, in this thread, which spawns this post. I think that's a good thing. I kind of hope for more time between printings, myself, but that's my opinion.
Referencing that above thread, I wouldn't mind seeing some clarification on SR 0 and SR 1, based on a post from Steve a while back. I personally would like to have something done with the disengaging rules - I fel they need a little tweak, but that's my opinion. Other than that, I feel the 4th printing is pretty good (other than normal editing, etc.)
Note: Hit the "Submit" before I finished writing my post.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Pretty much what you said. Had you discussed disengagement before, LD? Maybe that's what I remembered, instead of grapple. I'd be interested in seeing that thread.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Clarify magic item creation
Clarify use of helmets
Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc
Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently
Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6
Clarify use of helmets
Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc
Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently
Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6
De Oppresso Liber
Pro Deo Et Patria
Pro Deo Et Patria
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Metal, I'm not sure what e-mail or pm Troll said people should contact him at regarding errata, clarifications, and the like. You could run those by him. I'm relatively certain time will be of the essence since the number of 4th printing phb's is dwindling. Matter of fact, I'll be selling a few of them at a con in Illinois this weekend. I'd bet the Trolls want to correct or clarify the essentials, without making radical, sweeping changes. Then again, I'm sure they don't want to be completely out of the main book. New players are cropping up all the time, and what not. Here's to the fifth crusade! Not too many companies can say they haven't changed their core mechanic in over 7 or 8 years time. Combine that with affordable books, adventures, and accessories, and I'd say TLG is one hell of an RPG company.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Regarding the 12 prime vs. the + 6 method...I believe that is covered in the ckg. I suppose the Trolls could consider discussing that in the phb, but it might require changing the overall layout of the book. If so, I suspect that's something they wouldn't want to do at this stage in the game. Far be it for me to say, but add-on's and radical changes(overhauling ev, and the like)would (at the very least) put the 5th printing way behind schedule. Not to mentioned the layout issues. Just my 1cp, as some say.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Yeah, I think it is covered in the CKG.tylermo wrote:Regarding the 12 prime vs. the + 6 method...I believe that is covered in the ckg.
Reference the e-mail, its somewhere on this forum! LOL! But I think Steve was looking for Errata not so much nice to haves, updates or rewrites of things.
The list I gave above are somethings I found confusing and that we've talked a lot about on the forums. I think it would be worth expanding the page count to address these, but I'm not the one paying the publishing costs! Perhaps, what could be helpful, would be to have the trolls for the next printing, if not, then perhaps the 6th printing, start writing out the clarifications now and posting them for us, kind of like the errata and allow us to give them some fan feedback.
De Oppresso Liber
Pro Deo Et Patria
Pro Deo Et Patria
- kreider204
- Unkbartig
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 pm
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I would like these clarifications and errata:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4Nf1f ... andTMGdZdw
That would make it pretty much perfect for me (at least until more errata are discovered ... )
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4Nf1f ... andTMGdZdw
That would make it pretty much perfect for me (at least until more errata are discovered ... )
- MormonYoYoMan
- Ulthal
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 7:00 am
- Location: Texas
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
What do I hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Um -- a copy?
Um -- a copy?
-
*jeep! & God Bless!
--Grandpa Chet
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports." - George Washington.
*jeep! & God Bless!
--Grandpa Chet
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports." - George Washington.
- kreider204
- Unkbartig
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 pm
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Well, that too. Also, I hope they use Walsworth - I prefer the printing quality over the Troll's in-house.MormonYoYoMan wrote:What do I hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Um -- a copy?
- Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5844
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I don't want to post like I'm nitpciking...I'm not thet type of poster, I promise! That said, I do want to discuss the points you brought up, Metal1.TheMetal1 wrote:<snip>
Agree. There are some things in there that leave a little question.Clarify magic item creation
Also agree. I've used them as "head AC" and calculate it as 10 + Dex. mod. + helm AC. Against called shots, an opponent would roll against this number. But that isn't official, and I agree that something should be said, officially.Clarify use of helmets
This is one I'm going to disagree with, good sir, unless I'm not reading it correctly. I agree with the PHB and M&T being cross-referenced, but I don't agree with the other hardbacks. I see them, and the game has too (I think), as optional books. If OG&M, M&ToA, CKG reference the PHB, I'm good with that...but not the other way around, in my opinion.Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc
I thought this was clarified? Standard is not to allow non-class checks, but CK can allow but no adding level. Sorry, this one stumped me.Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently
As been mentioned before, this one was covered int he CKG.Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I have no clue, but I'm not sure if page count is the chief issue. More likely, whether or not added text will shift the current placement of Peter's art, etc. seems like some of his sketches(character classes)were larger size-wise in the 1st printing phb. Seems like some of them were minimized in subsequent printings. Short of one or two sentence clarifications within existing paragraphs, too much additional info might lead to radical layout changes. I'm sure we're more than welcome to discuss this in advance of an eventual 6th printing. I'm game for it. Until then, I'm sure they're hard at work to insure a much-needed restock of the phb. Bring it on.
- MormonYoYoMan
- Ulthal
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 7:00 am
- Location: Texas
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
That's only because Woolsworth changed its name to Foot Locker.kreider204 wrote:Well, that too. Also, I hope they use WalsworthMormonYoYoMan wrote:What do I hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Um -- a copy?
-
*jeep! & God Bless!
--Grandpa Chet
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports." - George Washington.
*jeep! & God Bless!
--Grandpa Chet
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports." - George Washington.
- Sir Ironside
- Lore Drake
- Posts: 1597
- Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:00 am
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I have to agree with Lord Dynel on this one. On the surface it isn't a bad thing to have all the core and supplement books cross-reference each other, but the logistics just don't make sense and if I may quote a common phrase, "It would be a slippery slope."TheMetal1 wrote:Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etcLord Dynel wrote: This is one I'm going to disagree with, good sir, unless I'm not reading it correctly. I agree with the PHB and M&T being cross-referenced, but I don't agree with the other hardbacks. I see them, and the game has too (I think), as optional books. If OG&M, M&ToA, CKG reference the PHB, I'm good with that...but not the other way around, in my opinion.
Not only would it take up a large portion of resources to just cross-reference but, It would mean, in my opinion, that there would expectations that for every future C&C supplement book to be cross-referenced every time a new printing came out.
A very close example would be; The Classic Monsters book. And a down-the-road supplement would be the planar book. An argument could even be made if books like Oriental Adventures, and the like, would benefit from a cross-reference. This is a big job that would be never ending, as long as the supplement was pertinent to the core books.
An argument could also be made for the CKG, but with the book containing a lot of alternate rules and expansion of current rules, I don't see the sense of cross-referencing something that is optional.
My "hope" for the 5th printing is a proper index for both books. The page count would grow (Though it'd grow by only about 2 to 3 pages) and you wouldn't have to reformat anything as the extra pages would be at the back of the book. More so the PH than M&T. (Maybe a M&T Index could list monsters by level.) If this was done for the M&T, and if other monster books would include a index like this, I would consider re-buying all of them. (If for nothing else having all the books with the new logo, for the aesthetics of it, for those who like their books to match.) l'd wait for the sales though.
A lesser wish, and one I do believe I'm a minority, I'd like to see subsequent printings change to the matte format than the existing glossy covers. (I know one of the arguments is the C&C books need to be like all the other rpg books, sitting on the shelf, to level the playing field. I say that having them matte would do a better job of having them pop of the shelf, because it is different from the other books and not lost in the sea of gloss. Imagine looking at all those gloss books, on the shelf, and having to move about to counteract the glare, from the lights, obscuring some of the information on the cover. Even picking up the book you have to swivel it around to read what is on the back of the book. Then, as you scan over them you come across a book that doesn't have this problem.)
If I remember correctly, from other threads, if something like move silently, rolling for surprise or tracking, as a non-class character being better than the character class even with not adding level, seems wrong. I included these three examples because it is hard for a CK to say that the character can't attempt something everyone should at least be able to try. (The tracking ability has more leeway depending on the forces of nature or guile of the one being tracked.) Forcing the class vs. non-class ability to be a little wonky, at the beginning. Of course this will not be a problem, at higher levels, but the problem would exist at the lower levels having one of the thief or ranger ability not unique, among the classes in that particular case.TheMetal1 wrote:Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silentlyLord Dynel wrote:I thought this was clarified? Standard is not to allow non-class checks, but CK can allow but no adding level. Sorry, this one stumped me.
My memory could be wrong though.
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Seems like there were some issues with the matte covers. Scuffing or imperfections could be spotted on some of the new matte copies of the ckg. I certainly don't speak for all copies. I do agree with Stephen that the "in house" copies opened flat at the table, whereas the glossy Walsworth is a little more tight on the binding. I hope that makes sense. Either way, the glossy phb's and m&t's have been around since the beginnings. The standard has been set, and I think glossy is better for the marketplace.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
If I get back to facebook tonight, I might leave Stephen a message about the index. The worst a troll can do is say no.
- Sir Ironside
- Lore Drake
- Posts: 1597
- Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:00 am
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Like I said it is no big deal for me. I'm not going to throw a hissy fit and curse TLG, throwing books on the ground, and vowing to never buy another TLG product till they bend to my will.tylermo wrote:Seems like there were some issues with the matte covers. Scuffing or imperfections could be spotted on some of the new matte copies of the ckg. I certainly don't speak for all copies.
I agree this makes a huge difference.tylermo wrote:I do agree with Stephen that the "in house" copies opened flat at the table, whereas the glossy Walsworth is a little more tight on the binding.
Which is why new printings would eventually become the standard.tylermo wrote:Either way, the glossy phb's and m&t's have been around since the beginnings. The standard has been set
I don't know anything about how a change in format would affect sales, so I'll just defer to you.tylermo wrote:I think glossy is better for the marketplace.
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Please don't defer to me. I don't know jack "s" about anything. That's just my opinion. I really do prefer the glossy look.
-
- Ungern
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:44 pm
- Location: Savona (Italy)
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I think the PHB is quite good as it is by now. If a new printing will come out, I hope it will have a short description of armours, weapons and the most exotic items, the capacity and speed of the various animals for trasportation and the rules about throwing and splashing oil, holy water and the like (they are on the CK screen)
- gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Just a little technical FYI as far as layout goes. Expanding any hard back book needs to be done in 16 page increments due to how its printed. Which, in turn, increases costs of printing depending on where it falls within a certain set of page ranges. Far as adding anything, there just isn't a whole lot of room to do so without expanding page count, since I've actually packed this book pretty tight with some subtle layout tricks. Just thought that would be relevant to know as far as the technical stuff goes.
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Yeah, I guess that could get a bit much along with then having to add in subsequent books. I think you're spot on with an index though. +1 on that.Sir Ironside wrote:Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
TheMetal1 wrote:
Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc
Lord Dynel wrote:
This is one I'm going to disagree with, good sir, unless I'm not reading it correctly. I agree with the PHB and M&T being cross-referenced, but I don't agree with the other hardbacks. I see them, and the game has too (I think), as optional books. If OG&M, M&ToA, CKG reference the PHB, I'm good with that...but not the other way around, in my opinion.
I have to agree with Lord Dynel on this one. On the surface it isn't a bad thing to have all the core and supplement books cross-reference each other, but the logistics just don't make sense and if I may quote a common phrase, "It would be a slippery slope."
Just thinking that the discussion we had on the forums about the 18 DEX fighter having an initial or on par ability to move silently (though not in utter silence like the rogue) would be a good example to use.Lord Dynel wrote:
Quote:
Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently
I thought this was clarified? Standard is not to allow non-class checks, but CK can allow but no adding level. Sorry, this one stumped me.
Yeah, I was just thinking the option might be helpful in the PHB as it seems both are used with frequency. It is covered in the CKG and quite appropo for that as it's an alternative way of looking at. Kind of on the fence on this. I'm a 12/18 CK myself.Lord Dynel wrote:
Quote:
Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6
As been mentioned before, this one was covered int he CKG.
De Oppresso Liber
Pro Deo Et Patria
Pro Deo Et Patria
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Thanks for the info, Peter. Very helpful.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Per the PHB, a character can attempt to use a non-class ability. pg. 125 ADDING CHARACTER LEVEL TO CHECKS section. I think Picking Pockets & Move Silent are the examples outlined...Sir Ironside wrote:I included these three examples because it is hard for a CK to say that the character can't attempt something everyone should at least be able to try.
- Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5844
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
As mentioned before, in other threads discussing this particular topic, the Trolls dissuade the the use of non-class abilities. But it is left, ultimately, to the CK.Arduin wrote:Per the PHB, a character can attempt to use a non-class ability. pg. 125 ADDING CHARACTER LEVEL TO CHECKS section. I think Picking Pockets & Move Silent are the examples outlined...Sir Ironside wrote:I included these three examples because it is hard for a CK to say that the character can't attempt something everyone should at least be able to try.
I could be mistaken but it seems pretty clear. They don't recommend it BUT they leave it to the CK to decide.PHB, page 125 wrote:It is up to the Castle Keeper to decide if such an attempt is even possible. In general, it is recommended that a Castle Keeper should disallow a character a chance of success in attempting a non-class ability.
If a Castle Keeper, for whatever reason, does allow a character to attempt a non-class ability...[the] character does not add his level to the attribute check roll.
I capitalized and bolded the "but" for one very important reason. The Trolls, in their approach to C&C, seem to be very open-ended and open-minded with the game. Take out what you want, leave what you like, and add whatever makes the game yours. In my conversations with Steve, and the others, here and at cons and such, that seems to be one of the constant points they seem to tout for the game. And I agree with it.
My hope is something that they don't codify or change this from how it is now. It's pretty well spelled out as it is, and I feel that this should be up to the individual CK whether or not they want any ol' PC to try to move silently or pick a pocket. Once it becomes more concrete, then you have players or CKs feeling like they have to do it that way. Twelve, exasperating, years of 3.5 D&D is proof of that (in my experience) - players feel like if they can't find a rule for it, they can't do it. OR if they can find the rule, they have to follow it to the letter. And if a GM tries something that's not spelled out in the rules, god forbid (yeah, I'm a little bitter about the "player entitlement" era ).
Please don't take it personally, Arduin, as I don't want this to sound like a personal affront to your post. I just don't see how something like this garners so much attention and/or confusion when it seems to be in the book, in black-and-white: the CK shouldn't allow it but if he does, there's no level added to the check. I feel that it's as clear and as spelled out as it needs to be.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
You have NO idea how much I agree with this!Lord Dynel wrote: My hope is something that they don't codify or change this from how it is now. It's pretty well spelled out as it is, and I feel that this should be up to the individual CK whether or not they want any ol' PC to try to move silently or pick a pocket. Once it becomes more concrete, then you have players or CKs feeling like they have to do it that way. Twelve, exasperating, years of 3.5 D&D is proof of that (in my experience) - players feel like if they can't find a rule for it, they can't do it. OR if they can find the rule, they have to follow it to the letter. And if a GM tries something that's not spelled out in the rules, god forbid (yeah, I'm a little bitter about the "player entitlement" era ).
Same exact experience(s) I had DMing 3X...
- Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5844
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I think I do have at least a silght idea!Arduin wrote:You have NO idea how much I agree with this!Lord Dynel wrote: My hope is something that they don't codify or change this from how it is now. It's pretty well spelled out as it is, and I feel that this should be up to the individual CK whether or not they want any ol' PC to try to move silently or pick a pocket. Once it becomes more concrete, then you have players or CKs feeling like they have to do it that way. Twelve, exasperating, years of 3.5 D&D is proof of that (in my experience) - players feel like if they can't find a rule for it, they can't do it. OR if they can find the rule, they have to follow it to the letter. And if a GM tries something that's not spelled out in the rules, god forbid (yeah, I'm a little bitter about the "player entitlement" era ).
Same exact experience(s) I had DMing 3X...
I love 3.x, don't get me wrong. It brought D&D into a new era and, as much as I love older editions too (I'm actually feeling a lot of affinity and nostalgia towards 2e at the moment ), I felt it was needed. Not only for a new playerbase, but for D&D's evolution. But with it brought a certain type of player and a certain type of mindset. When I want that, I'll pick up my 3.5 books without hesitation. When I want something with a lighter feel, less constraints, and with more emphasis on roleplaying and story over combat and tactics, then I pick up C&C.
I'll be so bold to say that C&C is darn near perfect. I don't think I've been able to say that about any other rpg before (though, strangely, I feel Marvel Superheroes comes close ). Sure, it needs a few tweaks here and there - some rule "smoothing," a few clarifications, and some syntax corrections - but I'm crossing my fingers that the Trolls don't mess with the recipe too much.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
- zacharythefirst
- Red Cap
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:00 am
- Location: Florida
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
You know, I have to agree with this. I thought and thought about it, but honestly, I love it as is. I'll buy a 5th printing for errata and to have another PHB to reference, but C&C is so easy to run and houserule, I really don't feel like anything needs added.Lord Dynel wrote: I'll be so bold to say that C&C is darn near perfect. I don't think I've been able to say that about any other rpg before (though, strangely, I feel Marvel Superheroes comes close ). Sure, it needs a few tweaks here and there - some rule "smoothing," a few clarifications, and some syntax corrections - but I'm crossing my fingers that the Trolls don't mess with the recipe too much.
I do like the current trade dress, and hope that would largely stay. I like my matching books.
Come, my friends,
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
-Tennyson
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
-Tennyson
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I'd expand the book to 172 pages and add in a brief line or two describing the various equipment options, class and race modification (in simple terms), spell and magic item design, a sample dungeon with game play, and a catalog of all available C&C resources.
- Omote
- Battle Stag
- Posts: 11560
- Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
- Contact:
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
I also have to agree that the C&C game is damn near pefect as is. Errata is a must, obviously. Perhaps a line or two here and there in various spells to clarify things a bit. But, if something needed to be added to the C&C game, I would almost whole-heartedly agree with much of Serleran's post. Pictures of the weapons and armor would sell this game much more. Equipment description would also be a nice addition. I also love the idea of a fully statted out, small dungeon crawl for players and GMs to learn from and read through. Place this dungeon in Aihrde and then sell sequel modules based off of the dungeon in the PHB.
~O
~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
-
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 2732
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
- Location: The Court of the Crimson King
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
Get the thrown/flammable liquids from the CK screen into the PHB when you get enough stuff to put in another set of signatures.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com
Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?
There are a lot of things the Trolls could do, but I think keeping the book at an affordable price point is crucial. Max price is 45.00 for the PHB and M&T. I sell product at cons from time to time, and I think current pricing is part if the appeal. Not to mention the art, the black and white 1st ed. feel(for some), and the simplicity of the Siege Engine.