EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lurker
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3994
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Oklahoma

EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Lurker »

Ok my girl’s Harvester’s game is progressing nicely, on average every other weekend. There has been times I’ve had to pause the game and give them ideas on tactics, but then they have taken it and ran with their own twists. Last game they ambushed a patrol, spotted the counter ambush (and defeated them) and then snuck in to the camp, killed the guards, and then rained arrow / bolt death down in the dark into the enemy camp – killing the Badger war leader in 2 rounds with combined shooting, then dropped rat and mice murderous thieves shot after shot. They ended the fight by charging down a fleeing mouse into the other sentry guard location and killing them all before they could sound their horn (magical that would have warned the main camp 2 days away that this war party was attacked and overwhelmed – by a ranger and a fighter).

That said, they are stacking up wins, learning some good role playing, and finishing the mini objectives to work toward the first (of many) overarching goal I have for them to complete .

That puts me into an issue, EXP … I’ve given them EXP by the book for the enemies they have defeated (both killed or kept from finishing their goal) exp for role playing, and exp for finishing the mini objectives, but I’m still coming up shorter than I planned on.

The one thing I’m not giving exp for is ‘treasure’. That is one thing I never liked exp for … Plus, I’m trying to keep the girls from becoming murder hobos or Monty Hall characters carrying too much treasure and equipment, so I don’t want to teach them that treasure is treasure and exp too .

Whit that, how should I adjust the BTB exp to fill in the shortfall for not giving exp for treasure. Would doubling the exp for the btb monsters be a good change to fix it ??? Would it be too much ???? What is a good realistic reward for EXP for role playing ??? What is good exp for completing a mini objective, of the adventure arch (for 1st / 2nd level adventure right now) ???
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Treebore »

Here is a little trick, decide what rate you want advancement to be at, then award XP accordingly. Or be as blatant as I was about it in our last C&C campaign, advance them when what you want to pit them against calls for higher levels.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3721
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Go0gleplex »

I have sometimes given xp for the encounter, not just the monsters. Take into account how the situation, terrain, tactics/preparations used by the monsters, and the monsters themselves and list a set overall xp value. I have only ever given xp for the magical items that get used by the party. Never the coinage value or magical items that are sold off. Slower advancement but no one has cared since we all have fun.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
mgtremaine
Ulthal
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:00 am
Location: San Diego, Ca
Contact:

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by mgtremaine »

Don't divide the Monster XP rewards per party member. That total is the total.

-Mike

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13847
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by serleran »

I have long ago given up the idea of experience points and have moved to a more user-defined goal-driven method so I can work with the player to find out what they're thinking could be fun to do, and what they'd like to see. It gives them a part of the plan in running the game. It also allows me to speed things up if needed and can lead to some really weird combinations when two or more players have different goals...

But, that said, you could AD&D2e it and award XP per use of class ability. Make it the same number of XP, unless one class has far more than another, such a wizard might gain 75 XP per 0-level spell (max of 4) but a thief/rogue only gets 25 for use of each ability. That, however, puts the onus on you to include opportunity for the players to use them... and also to check when they're just doing it, like "I move silently behind the fighter down this hallway... 25 XP!!!" as it can be easily abused. Maybe a max of once / session / ability.

Give them a bonus any time they have a good idea. That can be anything you want. And the idea does not even have to pan out. Of course, success should be rewarded more than failure, but XP is, itself, a representation of experience... not winning.

User avatar
Traveller
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Traveller »

You could do what I do. I award EXP for treasure at a rate of 1 EXP per gold piece spent, meaning if the fighter spends 50gp on his tavern room he gets 50 EXP. I also don't award EXP for magic items. The magic item must be sold to someone outside the party, and then the profit from the sale spent to gain experience.

It may be semantics here, but I believe this eliminates the EXP for treasure issue since the EXP is earned by spending the treasure rather than by simply having it. Hopefully the players realize that advancement improves by spending, so they'd best spend their gold and continue on to the next adventure.

User avatar
Rhuvein
Cleric of Zagyg
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Time

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Rhuvein »

Don't forget ~ XP for failure . . rogue tries to disarm trap, but he does not make his check - "treasure" chest explodes poison gas to his face.

I'll assume you give some additional XP for successful class/race checks.

:P
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

User avatar
Lurker
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3994
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Lurker »

Thanks for all the replies Some good food for thought

Traveller, I'm still not sold on 'exp for treasure' however, I do like the idea of, if I eventually admit that I need to use exp for treasure to round out the exp the need to progress, giving exp only when they spend it. Also I'd say for spending it wisely and in a way that fits the character. Buying basic food and stuff in the inn, you don't learn much from that, but figuring out you need a better weapon and buying a good masterwork Hewing spear or axe sure. It costs more, gets rid of that gold (that even a 9 & 10 1/2 year old are learning to hoard) and makes them better at their jobs

Rhu (and others) good point on exp for attempting skills, and even skill failures, I can't see it for al skill attempts, but for those unique critical save the day attempts (or when something that is unlikely to succeed, but important if it does - the younger daughter's rolling a nat 20 on a dex check to stay quiet and sneak closer to the enemy sentries to get a better show while the older sister's ranger stealth up to back attack the one with the horn ready to be sounded and warn the camp as an example)

Mgtre, rgr that on not dividing up the exp I have always been a believer in party exp and everyone gets their equal share. However, in those special situations I do give individual exp as a bonus.

Tree, I'm trying to go by a general rate, but just outside of making a GM fiat - you are now level 2 - I'm having trouble with the numbers working out. If it was just my girls I wouldn't worry about it, but as I'm using it as me also remembering how to DM ... I need to relearn how to do this part of the game too.

GoO, rgr on good tactics. Like I said, I did give them some hints (they are 9 & 10 1/2 so can't expect ranger handbook tactics) but they are clever and tricky ... they would take my tactics & then build on them, and build on them to devastating effect ! My poor rat sentries didn't stand a chance ... & I was SOOOO proud of them for it ! ;)
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3721
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Go0gleplex »

:D I was meaning tactics for the monsters Lurker. lol

Example: Encounter with 4 rat-nards (aka gt rats/R.O.U.S.s) in an old mill. Three of the ratnards are scavenging around the floor and piles of junk while one is above in the broken rafters looking for eggs in swallow nests. So compute the xp for the four beasties, add in a small bonus for the rat from above that will likley happen, and another if there is some danger from the debris in the room itself that could result from the fight, such as a wall or debris pile collapsing into a particular area. Total it all up and that is the set xp for the entire encounter barring outstanding performance by the players/PCs when they hit it.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
Traveller
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Traveller »

@Lurker: The game by design awards EXP for treasure accumulated, and by design the treasure is meant to be spent, not hoarded. Thus you need to charge for training, charge for new equipment, and basically find ways to siphon the money from the characters. Any house rule that foregoes awarding EXP for treasure is going to cause a shortfall in EXP, meaning slower advancement than the rules intend.

Your idea of only granting EXP if the coin is spent "correctly" will speed up advancement to an extent compared to not granting EXP for treasure at all. However, advancement will still be slower than by the book. The reason I don't require gold to be spent "correctly" is simple: I want the players to be able to influence how fast they advance in game, and the easiest way to do that without bucking the game's design parameters is by awarding EXP for every gold piece they spend.

I'm not sure there's an alternative that will work without either speeding up or slowing down advancement too much. Which highlights the thorny problems involved with making changes to the game mechanics like this.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Captain_K »

If you want a system that works with and used much of the PH values and give the players a goal, a number to keep track of and a rate that works for all, see the latest issue of Domesday (Issue IX) pages 3-6 which covers BOTH exp pts and what to do with the treasure.

PM or email me and I'll send you the excel tables.

By the way, such great things sound like they're happening!
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Lurker
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3994
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Lurker »

Go0 .... Oh I earned my combat scroll, many times over, sooooo .... all my monsters use tactics ! Scouts out from the camp hiding watching & listening, sentries guarding the camp, ambushes on back trials or over watching the trail waiting for the trackers to blindly follow the trial into an ambush ...

& like I said, my girls are quickly picking up on it and making expert tactics of their own . It helps that my older daughter took Wis as a prime so she makes most of her spot checks, and the few she has bollowed, her younger sister has rolled a couple of nat 20s ... so they have only once or twice walked flat footed into an ambush ...

That said, good point on upping the exp based on the better than average tactics I throw at them. A group of rats that are hidy ho up the middle I go should only be worth 1 exp a piece, but the rats using charge covered by boow fire and shield men giving cover to javelin throwers ... yeah that is a rodent of a different color !

Traveller, rgr on design progression set up for the exp with coin, but I tend to lower magic lower wealth than the standard assumption anyway, so even if I did go with the exp for treasure, my game would still be slower than the normal assumption for progression. I guess that is part of the problem, I need to figure out what the normal progression is and how much of that is from treasure, and then increase my exp for monsters etc accordingly . That said, RGR on your point about it being a thorny problem !

Capt K, ... I can't believe I missed that ... I must have skimmed right over it ... I'll have to read over it ! Sadly, my brother is in from Texas, and my in laws are in from GA, so for this weekend, until Sunday after Church, I won't have much of a chance to read anything.
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

Persimmon
Ungern
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:11 am

Re: EXP adjustment for when not using EXP for treasure ???

Post by Persimmon »

Late to the discussion and I might have missed someone else saying this, but many games offer XP for delivering and taking criticals. It's like 50 xp for giving one and 75 xp for taking one. Not sure if you use those in your game. And I always give role-playing and heroic xps. Like say one PC really gets into character for better or worse in a tight situation or gives themself upto protect others.

As for players accumulating too much wealth, don't forget to tax them! Churches, knightly orders, municipalities, thieves' guilds, ex-wives will all get their cut...

That being said, I still give xp and the standard rate of 1 per gp and give it for magic items too. Given that C&C monster xp values are comparatively low compared to every edition of D&D after first, I don't see it as a problem. And certainly there's nothing ridiculous like the 5E way of advancing to 2nd level on a paltry 300 xp.

Post Reply