Class and a Half

[Mordekai82]

A Barbarian class half fighter, does it worth my money or should I go for straight barb? Thanks.

M.

[Buttmonkey]

Go for a straight fighter and play it barbarically.

Treebore is going to disagree with me, but barbarians suck as a class. They just suck. They aren't as bad as in 1E, but that isn't saying much.

To answer your actual question, the only benefit to taking a half fighter class is weapon specialization when the PC hits second level as a barbarian. The bonus to hit will always follow the barbarian track. The question is whether weapon specialization is worth the experience point hit. That's a call you need to make for yourself. I don't think there's an objective way to decide how much XP weapon specialization is worth. (It can be calculated within the framework of C&C's XP charts (Serleran reverse engineered the XP charts at one point to figure out how the Trolls assigned XP to class abilities), but that just says what value the game designers arbitrarily assigned to weapon specialization, not the value you as a player would assign to it.)

[Mordekai82]

Yes, I think that weapon specialization + to hit bonus of the fighter is worth the first level, but then it starts to depreciate. That is my main concern since the XP cost raises almost exponentially.

On the other hand, you say Barbarian class is inferior to fighter class? That changes my whole perspective, I have the impression that pure Fighter is competitive by the first couple of levels but then it starts to diminish its worth along the way. Even with the class expansion in the CKG, the only level feat I'd find useful is the double weapon specialization at levels 13 and 19.

Anyway, this comes from a player with very little C&C experience.

M.

[serleran]

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[Mordekai82]

That +1 do not get watered down as you level your way up?

[serleran]

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[Captain_K]

Straight fighter and play it wild.. you can do so much with that. Class and a half with the half class bringing up the rear.. Barbarians get stuff at higher levels so you may never see the true barbarian stuff. Work with CK and get magic items that do the barbarian stuff OR be a 1/2 orc. Or work with CK to give up something in fighter for something like barbarian... I will never wear armor above chain mail if you let me have X or Y and when I have armor above chain mail on for some reason, I loose that power. Make a fighter into the aspects of the barbarian you want when you need more than flavor. Fighter barbarian is just higher experience anyway.

[Captain_K]

Serleran is always making classes for each PC desire.. tap his brain.

[Buttmonkey]

Yes, I think that weapon specialization + to hit bonus of the fighter is worth the first level, but then it starts to depreciate.

Keep in mind your barbarian + 1/2 fighter will NEVER get the fighter's BTH. The BTH is based on class level and the fighter level will always trail behind the barbarian's, so you never get that extra +1 for being a fighter. The only benefit a barbarian will get for taking 1/2 fighter is weapon specialization.

I'm working strictly off the PHB here. It's possible the expanded classes material gives the barbarian-1/2 fighter some additional fighter benefit at really high level, but it's going to be really high level in barbarian before that 1/2 fighter level gets to something interesting. What are the odds of playing a PC to that lofty a level? I'd say microscopic in most campaigns.

[Treebore]

The Barbarian is mostly a Fighter/Ranger hybrid, with a little bit of Thief thrown in for that Conan vibe, I guess. I'd either do pure Barbarian or the Fighter/Barbarian Class and a half, since the BtH plus Specialization is the biggest "power" of the Fighter class, so making it the primary is definitely the best way to go. Plus you will be able to wear heavier armors with fewer hindrances.

[serleran]

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[Treebore]

Intimidate is a big deal to me. That barbarian power is pretty badass.

True. Plus the Monk is wicked bad ass! I had a 12th or 13th level Monk almost single handedly take out a 9th level party of 7 characters. Brutal.

[Mordekai82]

Intimidate is a big deal to me. That barbarian power is pretty badass.

True. Plus the Monk is wicked bad ass! I had a 12th or 13th level Monk almost single handedly take out a 9th level party of 7 characters. Brutal.

I think Primeval Instinct provides the barb with a distinct conan-like flavor, but also a very useful tool outside combat. ¿Is that so?

On high levels, Iron Sinews seems pretty badass, specially with a 17/8 CON. But maybe by level 13 wouldn't be difficult for the character to own a +2 or +3 magic weapon, unless the CK is really screwing with him.

[Treebore]

I think Primeval Instinct provides the barb with a distinct conan-like flavor, but also a very useful tool outside combat. ¿Is that so?

On high levels, Iron Sinews seems pretty badass, specially with a 17/8 CON. But maybe by level 13 wouldn't be difficult for the character to own a +2 or +3 magic weapon, unless the CK is really screwing with him.

I've seen them both used to good advantage. Just don't recall if any of the uses would be what I would call bad ass.

[Lord Dynel]

I think barbarian/half-fighter would work pretty well. There are some synergies that make it pretty nice. serl touched on Intimidate. Intimidate with a high AC from good armor makes the barbarian very "tanky" (pardon the MMO terminology!), especially since you won't lose hit points for the combo, either, which is very nice. Not that barbarians have any armor restrictions to begin with, but none of their abilities suffer when using the heavier armors. Tack on Weapon Specialization (especially my house rules for WS) and you've got a nice little offensive edge, too. I think the added XP requirements are a good trade off. Losing combat dominance and extra attack hurt some, but whirlwind attack makes up a little (unless you're leaning towards an archer, then losing extra attack is a little more painful).

serl also mentioned switching the classes. That would work, too, but I think you might be sacrificing a bit too much of the barbarian flavor going this route. Combat Dominance + Extra Attack is, in my opinion, better than Whirlwind attack, you lose about 1 hp/level on average (not terrible), but you also lose Intimidate, Primeval Will, and Ancestral Calling. That seems a bit much, especially if you have a barbarian and fighter combo in mind.

[Mordekai82]

I think barbarian/half-fighter would work pretty well. There are some synergies that make it pretty nice. serl touched on Intimidate. Intimidate with a high AC from good armor makes the barbarian very "tanky" (pardon the MMO terminology!), especially since you won't lose hit points for the combo, either, which is very nice. Not that barbarians have any armor restrictions to begin with, but none of their abilities suffer when using the heavier armors. Tack on Weapon Specialization (especially my house rules for WS) and you've got a nice little offensive edge, too. I think the added XP requirements are a good trade off. Losing combat dominance and extra attack hurt some, but whirlwind attack makes up a little (unless you're leaning towards an archer, then losing extra attack is a little more painful).

serl also mentioned switching the classes. That would work, too, but I think you might be sacrificing a bit too much of the barbarian flavor going this route. Combat Dominance + Extra Attack is, in my opinion, better than Whirlwind attack, you lose about 1 hp/level on average (not terrible), but you also lose Intimidate, Primeval Will, and Ancestral Calling. That seems a bit much, especially if you have a barbarian and fighter combo in mind.

Thanks man! But as someone pointed above, I won't be getting the +1 BtH for the 1/2 fighter on first level, and that was the main reason I thought it'd be helpful to half class. So I guess I'll stick to the straight Barbarian and enjoy the advantages of leveling faster!

M.

[Mordekai82]

On the other hand, I think fighter 1/2 cleric would be a very neat combo, am I wrong?

[Buttmonkey]

There is absolutely no armor benefit to taking 1/2 fighter on top of barbarian. The only barbarian class ability affected by armor is primeval instinct. The armor restriction still applies after taking 1/2 fighter. The only benefit for a barbarian taking 1/2 fighter is gaining weapon specialization at second level.

[serleran]

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[Treebore]

There is absolutely no armor benefit to taking 1/2 fighter on top of barbarian. The only barbarian class ability affected by armor is primeval instinct. The armor restriction still applies after taking 1/2 fighter. The only benefit for a barbarian taking 1/2 fighter is gaining weapon specialization at second level.

Yes, but those armor penalties only apply to abilities that usually don't matter during combat.

[Treebore]

On the other hand, I think fighter 1/2 cleric would be a very neat combo, am I wrong?

I've played a Knight half cleric character, and greatly enjoyed the added versatility of the minor spell ability I had compared to the versatility the full level spell casters had.

[Buttmonkey]

There is absolutely no armor benefit to taking 1/2 fighter on top of barbarian. The only barbarian class ability affected by armor is primeval instinct. The armor restriction still applies after taking 1/2 fighter. The only benefit for a barbarian taking 1/2 fighter is gaining weapon specialization at second level.

Yes, but those armor penalties only apply to abilities that usually don't matter during combat.

Now you're confusing me. The barbarian has no armor restrictions. Its primeval instinct special ability cannot be used while wearing heavy armor. That penalty still applies if you take 1/2 fighter. There is not an armor benefit to adding 1/2 fighter to barbarian.

If you're making a broader point that barbarians can wear whatever they want and just eat the penalty to primeval instinct, then I agree with you. I had a player running a barbarian PC who routinely wore chainmail. He usually forgot to use primeval instinct even when he was in light armor, so it didn't affect his play much at all.