SIEGE Tweaks

Discuss the SIEGE engine, and SIEGE Engine games other than C&C, such as StarSIEGE, in this forum.
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paladinn
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SIEGE Tweaks

Post by paladinn »

So I had some time to research some opinions on C&C on various forums. While some of the more negative comments were just "sour grapes", a few were actually salient. Two in particular:

1. If you're not proficient in a given attribute, your saves never get any better.

2. Some classes, because of their primes, will do better than some classes with actual class skills. The clerics tracking thing is the classic example.

I've also read a few possible tweaks to Siege that may (or may not?) address some of this and more besides:

1. Use a flat base of 15 and a flat prime bonus. Amazing Adventures uses a flat +5 prime. I've used +3.
2. Instead of adding one's entire level to everything, use 1/2 level for everything and save the full level only for class abilities.
3. Toss all primes, add entire level to everything and give a bonus for class abilities.
4. Use a spell's level instead of caster's level for a spell's CL for saves.

#4 I want to adapt anyway, because I intend to use the 5e spellcasting system along with a spell point/mana system ala AA.

I've considered keeping adding full level for class features and prime saves, and allowing 1/2 level for everything else. Which would fix the save issue, but we'd still have the cleric tracking issue.

Any thoughts? Any other tweaks one might suggest?

Gratzi!

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Grandpa
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Grandpa »

paladinn wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:56 am
1. If you're not proficient in a given attribute, your saves never get any better.
Obviously whomever gave this one to you hasn't read the basic rules in the PHB. You always add your class level to a saving throw.

I stopped at number one because it was too basic of an error.

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paladinn
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by paladinn »

Grandpa wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:44 pm
paladinn wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:56 am
1. If you're not proficient in a given attribute, your saves never get any better.
Obviously whomever gave this one to you hasn't read the basic rules in the PHB. You always add your class level to a saving throw.

I stopped at number one because it was too basic of an error.
Ok, so skipping that, any thoughts about the rest? The cleric/ranger thing is a bit annoying

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maximus
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by maximus »

What is the cleric tracking thing?

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paladinn
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by paladinn »

maximus wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:52 pm
What is the cleric tracking thing?
Tracking is a Wisdom-based activity as well as a Ranger class feature. A Cleric with zero experience with tracking can hypothetically track as well or better than a ranger of similar level.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

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paladinn wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:26 pm

Ok, so skipping that, any thoughts about the rest? The cleric/ranger thing is a bit annoying
Not at all.

"There will be times when a player will want a character to attempt an action that intrudes in the realm of the class ability of another character class. For example, a fighter might wish to open a lock, or a wizard might attempt to track. It is up to the Castle Keeper to decide if such an action is even possible. In general, it is recommended that a Castle Keeper should disallow a character a chance of success in attempting a non-class ability."

The person coming up with the objections doesn't know enough of the rule set of C&C to run a game. My response to people like that is to exhort them to learn the rules of a game before making objections.

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paladinn
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

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Grandpa wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:13 am
paladinn wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:26 pm

Ok, so skipping that, any thoughts about the rest? The cleric/ranger thing is a bit annoying
Not at all.

"There will be times when a player will want a character to attempt an action that intrudes in the realm of the class ability of another character class. For example, a fighter might wish to open a lock, or a wizard might attempt to track. It is up to the Castle Keeper to decide if such an action is even possible. In general, it is recommended that a Castle Keeper should disallow a character a chance of success in attempting a non-class ability."

The person coming up with the objections doesn't know enough of the rule set of C&C to run a game. My response to people like that is to exhort them to learn the rules of a game before making objections.
So do you have any tweaks to the Siege engine, or do you always run btb?

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Grandpa »

paladinn wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:15 am

So do you have any tweaks to the Siege engine, or do you always run btb?
The only thing I change is that I have only one CB. That is 18. I add the CL to get the Challenge Class. The player just adds 6 if against a Prime attribute. That saves me from having to calc and note two CC numbers for each Challenge/save

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by maximus »

I run it BTB. I've seen no need to change at all so far. I understand it may get a bit wonky at high levels, but most campaigns don't get over 10th level or so anyway.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Go0gleplex »

Mostly BTB with only a few changes such as to how Level Drain works and expanding things within the existing framework. I'm of a mind that if one feels they have to change a lot of the base mechanics of a system to feel comfortable playing it, then one should either make their own system or find something else to play since it obviously doesn't make them happy...and changing so much of things tends to break the overall game itself in the long term. Fine line between customizing and re-inventing the wheel there.
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paladinn
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

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I'm not talking about changing "a lot" of the base mechanics. The Amazing Adventures game has a flat 15 base, with +5 for primes. I'm just wondering if a +5 makes it too "swingy", especially after adding one's level. I'd thought about +3. But those things are definitely open to be tinkered-with, according to the CKG.

The single biggest change I would make is the spellcasting system. I am leaning toward a mana/points-based system ala AA, as well as using a spell's level (instead of caster level) for saves and effects. Should alleviate the whole martial/caster divide.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Grandpa »

paladinn wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:11 pm
I am leaning toward a mana/points-based system ala AA, as well as using a spell's level (instead of caster level) for saves and effects. Should alleviate the whole martial/caster divide.
I haven't experienced a problem between martial and caster PCs as they aren't competing against each other Mano-a-mano. In my game a caster auto looses the spell if hit in the casting round as most spells take about a round to cast. Trying to cast in melee with missile weapons and people charging around is difficult. This rule applies to "monster" casters as well so isn't really a problem. Hasn't been since 1st edition because of this.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Go0gleplex »

The martial - caster divide was intentional as well in 1st and 2nd ed. The spell casting times were longer for the more powerful spells giving the melee monkeys a chance to disrupt the mass death being prepped by the magic abusers. Weapon speeds were also a thing to give the rogues a bit of a chance to grease the melee monkeys and casters while giving the caster a chance to get a fast cast spell off. Because folks complained about all the math and burdensome tracking of all these modifiers, you end up with fast cast times, ignored weapon speeds, and the whole complaint about melee monkeys being marginalized by caster types and such. Add in feats since players lacked the mental flexibility to ad lib on the fly and you ended up with the mess 3rd ed. became. I remember when a dagger master would literally shred a caster or tank with a big sword/axe in a fight and mages used spells in creative ways to keep distances open while providing support. Games are still fun, but overall a LOT less challenging and more of a mental button mash fest than thrill of achieving victory. Sad really.
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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Grandpa »

When you get into high levels you get martial characters with high level magic items and what not. Combined with their high level magic using mates makes for a formidable team vs. high level enemy MUs.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by paladinn »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:02 am
When you get into high levels you get martial characters with high level magic items and what not. Combined with their high level magic using mates makes for a formidable team vs. high level enemy MUs.
That may often be the case; but I personally don't think it's wise to count on obtaining certain magic items by certain levels. A DM/CK can always throw you a curve.

I know that was a big part of 4e - filling different magic item "slots" as you level up. One more thing I didn't like about 4e.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Grandpa »

paladinn wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:57 pm

That may often be the case; but I personally don't think it's wise to count on obtaining certain magic items by certain levels. A DM/CK can always throw you a curve.
It is the GMs job to figure out treasure availability to enable PCs to have at least a fighting chance as they level. Just as it's their job to not attack the 1st level party with an ancient Red dragon when they step out of the tavern to go to the market. If one has an incompetent GM train them or have another person GM. None of this has to do with deficiency in the rule set.

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Re: SIEGE Tweaks

Post by Go0gleplex »

[/quote]... to not attack the 1st level party with an ancient Red dragon when they step out of the tavern to ...[/quote]

:lol: Great shades of Castle Misbegotten! A big ol' ancient red lair up the slope from the main gates into the dungeon...add an intelligent dragon slaying sword that was smarter than the fighter carrying it...and CHAAAAAA...poof! crispy 3rd level party. Great times. :lol:
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