Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

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Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Treebore »

This was a random statement Serl threw into one of his posts, and it got me to wondering.

Do CK's think humans are too powerful?

I can see the argument, and agree with it some what.

However I think a lot of the racial abilities are pretty powerful, especially the vision. If the vision conditions are enforced there are a number of times/situations where humans fight blind and the racial characters do not.

So making the assumption that all rules are enforced, and therefore followed, I personally think that the third Prime is actually an excellent way to balance out the human against the other races.

So do you agree? IF so, do you have different reasons for agreeing?

Do you disagree? IF so please share why.
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Post by Maliki »

I'd say no, I think it balances out the demi-human racial abilities fairly well.
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Post by CKDad »

I disagree for exactly the reasons you mention: racial abilities, particularly vision. Maybe it's not the best balancing arrangement, but it's in keeping with the rest of the C&C "KISS" philosophy.
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Post by serleran »

The human third Prime can be easily construed as being too powerful, but, in my experience, many players prefer non-humans because the abilities they possess are more interesting... I know, for example, that my wife prefers non-humans because humans "suck" in dungeons (where we typically adventure): they can't see in the dark, they can't smell or hear anything coming (unless its obvious), can't find a secret door without looking, and looking hard, and a lot of other things like not being all empathic with rodents.So, I would not say that it is too powerful, but it certainly does make playing a "complex" class much easier.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

I don't think humans are too powerful with three primes. The 3rd Edition D&D and the C&C PHB touch o the fact that human are highly adaptable, quick to master things, and are versatile and capable creatures. I think that this is a perfect description of humans and in game terms works great (and did so with 3e, too).
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Post by csperkins1970 »

What if humans got 2 primes (like every other player race) and an extra +1 to all ability checks? It would be the equivalent of an extra prime (+6 to one ability's checks) but, obviously, more spread out.
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Post by Saarlander »

All right, i'm bringing up an oooooold post here, but browsing the forums, it just caught my attention.

I would they no, not too powerful... but powerful indeed.

And as a now active CK, i used this story-wise from the start on when i made up my (mostly human ruled) setting.

3 Primes may look powerful if you take the Human as the "default" race, and i couldn't.

Every other PC race from the PHB has not only abilities, but a distinct aura and flavor because these abilities are always worked in the background and depiction of that race, in-game terms speaking....

Why wouldn't Humans ?! In my setting, i made this clear to the players from the start (i have only one Human on a team of 4 PCs right now):

Humans are not "adaptable and skilled"... even the Elder races are trully fascinated because "Humans glow and burn, and for such short lived creatures, are so unique, not only aiming for the impossible, but actually able to achieve it more often than not. Their living flame is like no other, and no two humans are alike !"

Of course, Humans also have a thousands true reasons to feel fascinated, intrigued, or even repulsed sometimes, by all the other races, but it all goes both ways.

So having 3 Primes is extremely powerful, i agree... but it's exactly what Humans are, along with all the others.

As a final word, i would recommend watching a few episodes from the "Doctor Who" series, when the Doctor (a 900 years old supra genius alien) talks about Humans, what they are to him, why he loves them, and why he even feels sometimes inferior to them...

(Actually, i always thought the Doctor, especially Eccleston's and Tennant's take on the character, is great inspiration on how to roleplay an Elf anyway... but that's just me, then... )
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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by CharlieRock »

Treebore wrote:
However I think a lot of the racial abilities are pretty powerful, especially the vision. If the vision conditions are enforced there are a number of times/situations where humans fight blind and the racial characters do not.
So making the assumption that all rules are enforced

I find the vision rules run a close second to encumberance in "rules most likely not followed by anyone at the table" category.
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Post by Saarlander »

Quote:
I find the vision rules run a close second to encumberance in "rules most likely not followed by anyone at the table" category.

Ha, then I am your exception here !
Although we actually don't bother with actually measuring the exact vision ranges everytime, the different C&C visions (actually so much more sense in Twilight/Dusk/Dark vision than the older "i see infrared" and akin bulls**t) play a great role in our gaming.

I love to bring the dark down on PCs from time to time, and having them running as they can on slippery cliffs during a stormy night BEHIND the only character actually able to see anything at all is now a nice memory for my players...

I use visions from the start on when i describe my whole sceneries to my players, telling them only what they can actually see, and it's great part of the atmosphere i'm trying to make up, every time. And my players quickly learned to play with it, alternatively using torches, sending the Half-Orc or the Dwarf out to scout sometimes even if they are otherwise not the best fitted for it... or waiting till dawn if they have to.

In medieval tales, even fantasy, night and darkness are no friends of men, and this also enforces the heavy advantage of fantasy races in my game.
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Post by Buttmonkey »

I think the races are well-balanced with humans getting 3 primes.

I also chuck the various classes of vision adopted by C&C out the window in favor of straight infravision (and its associated BS).
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Post by paladin2019 »

Saarlander wrote:
(Actually, i always thought the Doctor, especially Eccleston's and Tennant's take on the character, is great inspiration on how to roleplay an Elf anyway... but that's just me, then... )
Tom Baker was the elf king in the D&D movie

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Post by Saarlander »

Quote:
Tom Baker was the elf king in the D&D movie

Nope. Can't have been. There never was a D&D movie.

Sigh.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Try as you might, Saarlander, you cannot deny the greatness that is the D&D movies!
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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

I voted no, but I have always thought that demi-humans, without level limits can be far too powerful.
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Post by Joe »

Only if you equate sameness with equality.

It is a given in the generic role playing fantasy game that humans are the dominant species that inherits the world from elder races.

How can they be prtrayed as dominat if there is no mechanic that reflects that?

I think we make the mistake of taking todays mistaken political views, values, and ethics and applying them to fantasy all too often.
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Post by Benoist »

If that encourages players to play humans instead of going for the elf just because "it's cool", so much the better, in my opinion.

Now, that said, I don't think 3 primes is too powerful. Remember that a big part of the game's "balance" comes from the actual game play (which means the CK rulings, the adventure's set-up and unfolding, the understanding/cooperation between players and CKs and between players themselves, among others).

The rules' "balance" is one thing. The game's another. Remember there is a game outside the pages of a rule book.

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Post by CharlieRock »

Joe wrote:
Only if you equate sameness with equality.

It is a given in the generic role playing fantasy game that humans are the dominant species that inherits the world from elder races.

How can they be prtrayed as dominat if there is no mechanic that reflects that?

I think we make the mistake of taking todays mistaken political views, values, and ethics and applying them to fantasy all too often.

They're only going to dominatehalf the time approximately. The other half,at night, they won't.
Vampires will.
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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Arazmus »

CharlieRock wrote:
I find the vision rules run a close second to encumberance in "rules most likely not followed by anyone at the table" category.

I used to ignore encumberance rules a lot, then one day at work a box opened up, the manifest stated 2000 1" discs, aluminum, copper washed. They were about a milimeter thick and the box, when we repacked it, weighed in the neighborhood of 60lbs. That's when I, and the guy working for me who helped repack the box...also a gamer, determined that NO ONE is walking around with 2000 aluminum pieces on their person much less 2000gp. Do I use the rules to the letter? No, but I do keep track of encumberance.
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Post by BASH MAN »

Well, I think that it depends on the class. If you're playing a fighter, then it isn't all that powerful, as primes make little difference. If you're playing a rogue or ranger, the wrong race choice is the same as cutting your character's own foot off with a hacksaw.

However, the simplest solution to this- is I treat *all class abilities* as if the character's stat were Prime. This makes it so you can choose to play a Rogue with Charisma Prime (for saves, charming the wench, etc) without the other players getting annoyed at you when you trigger a trap on them (for the third time) because you didn't make INT your prime.

I think you also get more *flavorful* characters this way, since the choice of prime has more to do with your own choices of how you see the character rather than optimization.
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
However, the simplest solution to this- is I treat *all class abilities* as if the character's stat were Prime.

This actually makes non-humans better, especially if they take a class with several Primes like Ranger or Rogue, because it lets them have Prime in non-class attributes and still function completely normally as their class, thereby making them even more flexible. You're essentially, giving them free Primes that don't affect saves.

But, this argument is old. If you find it works well for your game, great. I would imagine to see a lot more non-humans in the game, and probably a lot more multi-Prime classes.
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Post by Arazmus »

B-A-L-A-N-C-E Balance.....
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Post by Fiffergrund »

serleran wrote:
This actually makes non-humans better, especially if they take a class with several Primes like Ranger or Rogue, because it lets them have Prime in non-class attributes and still function completely normally as their class, thereby making them even more flexible. You're essentially, giving them free Primes that don't affect saves.

But, this argument is old. If you find it works well for your game, great. I would imagine to see a lot more non-humans in the game, and probably a lot more multi-Prime classes.

Yep - the intent was specifically to make humans the most versatile race. Therefore, they make the best rangers and rogues. That's not to say an elf rogue can't be great, but there's a natural limitation that goes along with great vision/hearing capabilities and natural bow/sword aptitude. To get those kewl abilities by playing an elf, a player has to choose to be less skilled at something.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

serleran wrote:
This actually makes non-humans better, especially if they take a class with several Primes like Ranger or Rogue, because it lets them have Prime in non-class attributes and still function completely normally as their class, thereby making them even more flexible. You're essentially, giving them free Primes that don't affect saves.

But, this argument is old. If you find it works well for your game, great. I would imagine to see a lot more non-humans in the game, and probably a lot more multi-Prime classes.

I agree, serl. I once thought to have non-Prime class abilities work off a CB of 15. That would make it at least bearable, I thought, for non-human races, and their two primes (but of course, it would apply to humans, too).

But the more I thought about this, the more I didn't like it. Like Fiff said - humans are supposed to be the most versitile race. Having an extra Prime is what balances them against the other races (and I do believe this) but also reflects the versatility of man. On average, elven rangers are more dextrous, better with bows and swords, moving silently, and finding traps in addition to other facets not directly related to the ranger class...just by being an elf. So, I think it makes good balance to allow humans to master one additional physical or mental realm.

Of course, I allow a choice of Primes based on class (each class has a number of primes associated with them according to the attributes that their class abilities work off of), which helps demi-humans in case there is any incidential "issues." The demi-human ranger is a special case to me, simply becase, BtB, there is a perceived issue with Strength as a Prime and it's non-relevance concerning class abilities. thus, every class has a few different choices for its "mandatory Prime."
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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Bifford »

Fancy summarising the points for & against made so far!? :)

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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Grandpa »

If the GM doesn't use the vision situation it could be too powerful. Anyone who has been in total darkness knows how bad it sucks.

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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Persimmon »

Another thing I've always done as a sort of carry-over from 1e is rule that only demi-humans can multi-class, but they're restricted to the favored classes in the rulebook. So no halfling or dwarf wizards or combos with those classes in them. For ABP it's a judgment call. Elf and halfling archers are a given, though I allow other missile weapons in there. One could,for example, be a halfling slinger, but just use the archer rules. Dwarf warrior priests and rune marks are obviously in, though I combine the rune mark with the much cooler runegraver class from Hyperborea.
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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Fiffergrund »

Bifford wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:29 pm
Fancy summarising the points for & against made so far!? :)
Well, I might be able to layer some additional nuance on it, too. I remember this like it was yesterday....

[DREAM SEQUENCE]

It helps to consider what was going on during the infancy of C&C. It was just a bunch of ideas at that point, and we were mashing them all together, playtesting everything, and brainstorming ideas in real time. Unfortunately, a lot of those threads are lost to time, on the prior board, but here's what I remember about the reasoning, keeping in mind that it was 20 years ago or so.

(That blows my ever-lovin' mind.)

C&C was very much a reaction to 3.0 and 3.5, so a lot of the decisions were made with two angles in mind:
  1. Take old school principles, not necessarily mechanics, and design mechanics that are easy to use and remember but have the old school feel and spirit.
  2. Whenever possible, do the first thing in a way that allows classic materials to be used without much conversion effort or concern about balance.
I suppose that if you wanted to include a third, it might be that it had to be OGL-compliant, but we were generally pretty sure we would be anyway. Most of these ideas were brand new or at the very least new twists on a theme.

So, Primes.

I don't remember who floated the idea of using Primes originally. We all jumped on the idea immediately and started working through the reasoning of it, though, because it had a bunch of things going for it.
  • It hearkened back to classic D&D and Prime Requisites.
  • It immediately tied in to the SIEGE mechanic - though I'm not sure it was even called that then. I think we were calling it T20 when the Prime Attribute idea was formed.
  • It gave us a way to make humans a desirable player race without using character level limits (like in older versions) or using any of the mechanisms from 3E (extra feat, for example).
Demi-humans have extra stuff. Attribute bumps during creation, extra senses, better immunities, whatever. Humans get none of that. So, with the idea (from MANY sources) that humans are the most "adaptable" race, allowing them to have an advantage when it came to problem-solving and task resolution just seemed to make sense.

Primes started with Prime Requisite-type assignment. That's the Class Prime. They exist because it's better than a numeric gate on the attribute in order to be in the class. Personally, I don't mind the minimum required score idea, but people like to play Paladins and Rangers without having to get lucky with die rolls.

The class prime sometimes doesn't seem to make sense. The most obvious example is the Ranger class having a Strength prime. Why Strength? Because at the end of the day, most Rangers are hardy woodland fighters, and without knowing how to best use one's Strength, being alone in the wilderness is a death sentence. No, it doesn't help them check all of the boxes for being a "great ranger" necessarily. Rangers have a diverse suite of abilities. But it does let them be really good at a few, and yet still be able to carry a full kit and a slain deer out of the woods by one's lonesome.

You could make an argument for Wisdom here, or Dex, or Con. You can, because we certainly did. But we went back to that principle at the root - bring over the classic feel. As we all know, Rangers are a Fighter subclass in that world, and so in C&C, they have some of those characteristics.

So, back to the Thread Question. Why do humans get 3, and is it too powerful?

Humans get 3 primes because this gives them the most adaptability to face conditions in a chaotic environment and persevere. Demi-humans adapted to have long life, and sensory abilities, and facility with weapons, or whatever, but humans just got good at stuff. Their brains have a flexible instinct that allows them to apply more of their attributes. Maybe elves live too long and get stuck in patterns of thinking. Maybe dwarves are too grumpy. Whatever the case, humans have that advantage.

Mathematically, the third prime resolves about as many situations as the demi-human special abilities. We kept track during playtests. The impactful situations where either the third prime mattered or the demi-human ability mattered came up at about the same frequency, and had about the same impact. They either resolved tricky situations or helped prevent them.

The third Prime is worth having to carry a torch, but not having to carry a torch or search for secret doors might be worth only having two Primes. The choice is yours.

It also means that for classes where adaptability and instinct are particularly helpful (like the Ranger), that third prime means that humans fit the niche better than any other race IF (and only IF) they choose all three Primes to align with the class abilities. The nice part about adding the character level to SIEGE checks is that any character can become good at something despite not having natural ability. Are they as good as someone who has both? No, but they can get by, and they have other things they're great at naturally.

But, but, but ELF RANGERS SHOULD BE BETTER THAN HUMAN RANGERS BECAUSE THEY LIVE IN THE WOODS.

Who says? Tolkien? The only Rangers in Tolkien's world were what race?

Elves in D&D over the years have gotten the privilege of being the best at damn near everything they do. There isn't one class in AD&D that an elf isn't nearly perfectly suited to fill. INT and DEX buffs, immunity to sleep and charm, spot secret doors, long lives (and able to use spells that age with low impact). Remember - Haste aged anyone affected by a YEAR each time it was cast. To elves, that just didn't matter.

AD&D limited their levels because otherwise elves would rule the world and it wouldn't even be close. Imagine unlimited levels with a 1000 year lifespan, and that's just the top end. We didn't want to limit their levels, so we limit their potential, just a little, by allowing only two primes.

In C&C, this is a different paradigm, and we didn't have to add any crunchiness to do it. It's a game where being a human has equal appeal, albeit from a different direction.

A little long-winded, but maybe that helps explain it a bit.
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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by serleran »

Yep, the original system was "Target 20" which did not have Primes, per se, but a mechanism into which they were formed, and that termed got dropped due to a variety of reasons, one of which was another game using the name (Blue Rose?). I only remember this because I posited the first system and it was as confusing as Primes have appeared to be, but the breaking down to Primes made it more digestible... so, that was a positive change, one I admit I was not seeing those many years ago because... umm... I was me and hadn't lost my sense of being over me.

Anyway, the story of C&C is rather interesting, generally, speaking.

M&T development was different. I mean, I had almost no instructions except "make sure Gary likes it."

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Re: Humans and 3 Primes too powerful?

Post by Fiffergrund »

Ah, good times. It's really hard to believe it was as long ago as that. I think it was Blue Rose.

I still have my playtest drafts, all marked up. That first draft was a barely disguised 1E :D
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